• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

LDS and evolution of "The Prophet"

Status
Not open for further replies.

christopher123

Veteran
Apr 2, 2004
1,177
39
✟24,052.00
Faith
Christian
I've seen occasional threads or posts regarding the nature or duties of "the LDS prophet" and even to the point of what has Gordon Hinckley "prophesied" lately or any time. I never really looked upon him (or his others in his office) with the need to have him stand up and do any fortune telling. I was always taught and believed that his role as prophet (as opposed to seer and revelator) was as teacher of doctrine.

It is interesting to look back over the teachings on a subject of the early LDS prophets and compare them with how Gordon Hinkley responds to the same.


Let's take the "God was a man idea."


Joseph Smith ("King Follett Discourse," Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 342-345):

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us.... Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves,... the same as all Gods have done before you..."

Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 7:333):

"He [God] is our Father - the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being."

Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 3:93):

"The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like himself."

Milton R. Hunter (The Gospel Through the Ages, p 104):

"Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar that through which we are now passing. He became God - an exalted being - through obedience to the same eternal Gospel truths that we are given opportunity today to obey."

Bruce R. McConkie (Mormon Doctrine, 1966 ed p 250):

"...God...is a personal Being, a holy and exalted man..."

Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation 1:10, 1954, cited from 21st printing 1975):

"God is an exalted man. Some people are trouble over the statements of the Prophet Joseph Smith ... that our Father in heaven at one time passed through a life and death and is an exalted man..."

LeGrand Richards (private letter to Morris L. Reynolds, July 14, 1966):

"There is a statement often repeated in the Church, and while it is not in one of the Standard Church Works, it is accepted as church doctrine, and this is: 'As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.'"

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young (published by the church as an official lesson manual 1997 [text "approved 10/95"], p. 29):

"President Brigham Young taught ... that God the Father was once a man on another planet who 'passed the ordeals we are now passing through...'"

-------------------------------------------------------------


The LDS church prophets have gone from:

Joseph Smith:
It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us....

to


Gordon Hinckley:

I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it.





With general conference coming up, and all the talk here about not having to accept what the prophets say, and even having to vote on "revelation", one can wonder what the need for the church president today is other than corporate heirarchy? The prophet doesn't currently prophecise, the seer doesn't currently see, and the revelator doesn't currently revelate. Maybe some of my Catholic friends are right, and the heavens are closed.

Chris <><
 

christopher123

Veteran
Apr 2, 2004
1,177
39
✟24,052.00
Faith
Christian
Onesiphorus said:
Forgive me if this has already been asked:

When did the verification of prophecy start with the lds? Has it always been there? Certainly JS did not have his prophecies voted on? or did he?


I think you will even see debate over the answer to that question. A good example is what is cannonized in the D&C by Salt Lake is different from what is in it by the Missouri group.

If you look hard enough, you can find prophetic support for most any postion.

Trust me, if Hinkley were to stand at the podium and say as former prophets did, "Brethren, what revelation I say to you now is doctrine........", nobody in that buiding will call for a vote..............in a hundred years they may ignore it or say we didn't understand it, but it would be lived and taught to the current mormons.

There is probably much in the idea that LDS commitment to obedience is more important than commitment to truth.


Chris <><



Chris <><
 
Upvote 0

fatboys

Senior Veteran
Nov 18, 2003
9,231
280
72
✟68,575.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

FB: Are you upset that the Gospel evolved and continues to evolve? We are given line upon line, just as Joseph Smith was given line upon line. The gospel is a work in progress, that is our understanding of it. And it makes little difference that the D&C we have today is different than the one at the time of Joseph Smith, or different than that RLDS.

My understanding of the gospel is different than when I was 22, 25,30, 40, or 50. The more I learn, my understanding is different. I would expect that everyone, including Joseph Smith is the same way.
 
Upvote 0

christopher123

Veteran
Apr 2, 2004
1,177
39
✟24,052.00
Faith
Christian
fatboys said:
FB: Are you upset that the Gospel evolved and continues to evolve?

That is quite an evolution from: being "the first principle of the Gospel"...to...."ummm, I don't know".

You needed a prophet for that kind of evolution?

fatboys said:
We are given line upon line,

looks more like you were "taken away" line upon line


fatboys said:
The gospel is a work in progress,

No, actually Jesus finished it. He said so himself.

fatboys said:
My understanding of the gospel is different than when I was 22, 25,30, 40, or 50. The more I learn, my understanding is different.

It would have to be, because in the LDS church your "gospel" is always changing.



Chris <><
 
Upvote 0

Tawhano

Northland Highwayman
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2003
3,109
118
72
North Carolina
Visit site
✟71,438.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
fatboys said:
And it makes little difference that the D&C we have today is different than the one at the time of Joseph Smith...

And that doesn't raise an alarm with you? Is this the intelligence and open mindedness that you suggested I lack?
 
Upvote 0

AMMON

LATTER-DAY SAINT
Jan 30, 2004
1,882
32
54
Sacramento, California
Visit site
✟2,223.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
christopher123 said:
Joseph Smith:
It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us....

Chris <><

Pardon my suspicious nature, but could you provide the entire quote from above (i.e., the part the ellipses cut-out), and the citation thereto (e.g., source, date, time, place, etc.)? Thanks.
 
Upvote 0

A New Dawn

Bind my wandering heart to thee!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2004
70,874
7,883
Western New York
✟148,761.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Tawhano said:
And that doesn't raise an alarm with you? Is this the intelligence and open mindedness that you suggested I lack?
I would like to state that the RLDS belief is entirely opposite of the LDS belief. If something is brought forth that conflicts with previous scripture, we consider it disjunctive and do not accept it. However, the "we" I am referring to is the RLDS Restorationists. The CoC has moved toward accepting disjunctive revelation.
 
Upvote 0

Romans5:1

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2004
1,116
18
✟1,393.00
Faith
Christian
AMMON said:
Pardon my suspicious nature, but could you provide the entire quote from above (i.e., the part the ellipses cut-out), and the citation thereto (e.g., source, date, time, place, etc.)? Thanks.

"It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."—Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith (Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1976), 345-46.

Happy now? Or would you like more?
 
Upvote 0

Romans5:1

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2004
1,116
18
✟1,393.00
Faith
Christian

And the whole Mormon mess just continues to fragment. One wonders how long it will be before someone comes along and tries to restore the restored restorationist restorations of Mormonism. But, then again, I guess that's what you get when man becomes involved in idolatry, with himself being the center of attraction.
 
Upvote 0

christopher123

Veteran
Apr 2, 2004
1,177
39
✟24,052.00
Faith
Christian
Romans5:1 said:
Really? So the RLDS do not recognize Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, or the Book of Mormon as scripture? If not, then the RLDS is not entirely opposite of LDS belief.

I don't know Romans5:1, the way the LDS church and Hinkley are going, how long will they recognize Smith as a prophet. His teachings are certainly unrecognized by members we see here.


Chris <><
 
Upvote 0

christopher123

Veteran
Apr 2, 2004
1,177
39
✟24,052.00
Faith
Christian


Wasn't COC supposed to get a new prophet/president today to replace McMurray?

Do RLDS Restoratioinist acknowledge him as such?


Chris <><
 
Upvote 0

A New Dawn

Bind my wandering heart to thee!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2004
70,874
7,883
Western New York
✟148,761.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
christopher123 said:
Wasn't COC supposed to get a new prophet/president today to replace McMurray?

Do RLDS Restoratioinist acknowledge him as such?

Chris <><
Yes, they just announced that Steve Veasey, president of apostles, will be the name they submit to the conference for approval. We/They just did it the way the LDS do.

I do not know much about Steve Veasey. A lot of it will depend on if he was ordained an apostle or high priest by a woman or not.
 
Upvote 0

Romans5:1

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2004
1,116
18
✟1,393.00
Faith
Christian
christopher123 said:
I don't know Romans5:1, the way the LDS church and Hinkley are going, how long will they recognize Smith as a prophet. His teachings are certainly unrecognized by members we see here.


Chris <><

Good point. Which further confirms what I said elsewhere about the continuing fragmentation of what is commonly known as "Mormonism."
 
Upvote 0

christopher123

Veteran
Apr 2, 2004
1,177
39
✟24,052.00
Faith
Christian


Does he have Smith blood in him (is that required now) or was Wallace B. the last?

Chris <><
 
Upvote 0

AMMON

LATTER-DAY SAINT
Jan 30, 2004
1,882
32
54
Sacramento, California
Visit site
✟2,223.00
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I'm Happy. That is what I wanted.

A principle is singular in nature, and--therefore--the primary message of the above quote is, "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God." Period. That, according to the above quote, is the first principle of the Gospel. And "character" is defined as, inter alia, "The combination of qualities or features that distinguishes one person, group, or thing from another; a distinguishing feature or attribute, as of an individual, group, or category; moral or ethical strength; a description of a person's attributes, traits, or abilities." Thus, one should learn the combination of qualities or features of God, among other things, pursuant to that quote.

Moving on to the rest of the quote, these are not part of the priniciple of knowing for a certainty the Character of God... that principle is far-reaching, requiring a lifetime of study and relationship building with God, a pure exercise in faith, which is the first principle of the Gospel. The attributes listed in the quote are examples of the kinds of things that one might learn about God in one's lifelong quest to know for a certainty the Character of God, but it's not an exclusive list, for God's attributes are without number.

Hence, the first principle of the gospel, according to that quote, is NOT that God was once a man, etc., but instead that our task is to exercise faith and learn the Character of God, whatever that might be.
 
Upvote 0

A New Dawn

Bind my wandering heart to thee!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2004
70,874
7,883
Western New York
✟148,761.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
christopher123 said:
Does he have Smith blood in him (is that required now) or was Wallace B. the last?

Chris <><
No. And it depends on what you mean by "last". Wallace B. was the last president of the church who was a Smith, but there are other direct male descendents that could occupy that position had they done it the way God specified in the D&C.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.