LAw vs Grace

[rrobsr]

• The law required everything and gave nothing.
• Grace required nothing an gave everything.

 

[Solomons Porch]

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The law equates with all our strivings and all our doing to be justified before God

Grace equates to God doing all and being all that results in our justification to those who believe.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Paul spent a lot of try drive home the point that obedience to the Law was never about striving to become justified and that the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith, yet people are still making the error of thinking that obeying the Law was about trying to become justified, only they have compounded their error by concluding that therefore our faith does away with our need to obey there Law, whereas Paul concluded that our faith does not do away with our need to obey it, but that our faith upholds the Law (Romans 3:31). Rather, the Law is God's instructions for what to therefore do by grace through faith because we have be justified by grace through faith. Our salvation involves being trained by grace to obey God's Law (Psalms 119:29, Titus 2:11-14). In John 5:46, Jesus said that Moses wrote about him, in Luke 24:27, Jesus began with Moses and the Prophets interpreting to them all the things in Scripture concerning himself, in Hebrews 10:7, it says that the totality of the scroll is written about Jesus, and in Romans 10:4, a relationship with Jesus is the goal of obedience the Law for everyone who has faith, so the entire Bible is all about teaching us about God, about how to live according to His attributes by grace through faith, and about how to thereby grow in a relationship with Him.

For example, helping the poor is a way that God revealed in His Law to act according to His righteousness, so because we have been declared righteous we are therefore required by our faith to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous because the one and only way to become righteous is by faith.

Incorrect!

The Law is just and good, but it has no power to make anyone Holy or righteous because it demands from us what we cannot do... keep it entirely.

If God had not found a fault with it he would not have needed another, but as it is Jesus is the guarantee of a better covenant. A Covenant of grace, not law

 

[PeaceB]

• The law required everything and gave nothing.
• Grace required nothing an gave everything.

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Soyeong]

Incorrect!

The Law is just and good, but it has no power to make anyone Holy or righteous because it demands from us what we cannot do... keep it entirely.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, God said that what He commanded was not too difficult and if we believe what God said is true, then in Romans 10:5-10 our faith says that what God commanded was not too difficult. So while I agree that the Law has no power to make anyone holy and righteous, the reason is not because it demands what we cannot do, but rather because it was never given for the purpose of making us holy and righteous in the first place. As I pointed out, no amount of doing what is righteous will ever make someone who is not righteous to become righteous, but rather it is God who declares us to be righteous by faith, and the Law is His instructions for what to therefore do because we have been made righteous.

If God had not found a fault with it he would not have needed another, but as it is Jesus is the guarantee of a better covenant. A Covenant of grace, not law

Indeed, God found fault with the Mosaic Covenant, but the problem was not with His righteous standard, but rather as stated the problem was with the people who broke his covenant because of the hardness of their hearts, which is why the New Covenant involves God solving this problem taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to cause us to obey His Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). As I pointed out, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law (Psalms 119:29) and the New Covenant says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct us how to do, so both the Mosaic and the New Covenant are covenants of grace and of Law.

 

[rrobsr]

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Why does everyone who loves the law automatically assume those who love grace feel as though they can do whatever they want? That's a huge leap and completely unwarranted.

In fact, we have a higher law than Israel had. We are told to love God and love our neighbour (Eph 5:2, 1 Thes 4:9, 2 Tim 1:7, et. al.). I'm not going to lie to you because I have to follow some law. No, I won't lie to you because I love you. It's a much higher plane of existence, to be sure. That plane was simply not available in the OT. Jesus' resurrection made it available for you and I to have the love of God (agape) dwell within. Israel didn't have that love (agape) so the law was instituted to keep them somewhat on track until the saviour could come. The law was their schoolmaster (Gal 3:24) to keep them from wiping themselves off the earth until Christ came. After Jesus' resurrection the schoolmaster was no longer needed (Gal 3:25). That's what I meant when I said born again believers can operate on a higher plane if they so desire. But it they want, they can keep themselves under the law/schoolmaster. Well, one of them works to live a godly life, and the other doesn't. It's that simple.

Of course if you want to follow the law for righteousness you can, but you must follow ALL of it (Gal 5:3). One little slip and you're out (Gal 3:10)! Better stick with grace.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why does everyone .... those who love grace feel as though they can do whatever they want?

Your opening post is a big hint:

Grace required nothing an gave everything.

 

[rrobsr]

Your opening post is a big hint:

OK. This is as plain as I can say it, I try to do the things contained in the law, not because I'm required to but because I love. I want others to see my life as an example of the love of God, not because it is required, but because I love God and want to do his will.

Israel was required to do the law. Well it didn't work so Jesus came to end the law (Rom 10:4) and make it available for us to have the love of God dwell within. Israel didn't have that because it wasn't available until Jesus' resurrection.

 

[rrobsr]

So far, you have NEVER posted / quoted/ anyone who said they obtain righteousness by following the law,

have you ?

That is a very common error made daily by those who ... well, let's just leave it at that, a very common error claiming someone follows the law for(to obtain) righteousness.

No I haven't. Should I have?

 

[rrobsr]

[Staff edit].

It is important to understand to whom something is written and when it was written. As far as to whom, it could be Jew, Gentile, or Church of God. What God says to Israel is radically different than what he says to born again believers. As far as the when it was written, things changed when Christ rose from the dead. Again, the way God dealt with Israel is radically different than how he deals with the Church of the Body, the born again believers.

If someone doesn't keep these things straight, they will never understand the greatness of God's plan of redemption. It would be impossible.

 

[Soyeong]

[Staff edit].

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith was what of the weightier matters of the Law and obedience to it is straightforwardly about having faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live according to His attributes. So the Book of the Law is of faith and Abraham is the Father of our faith, but man-made work of law are not and by relying on our works of law will put us under a curse because we are failing to live by faith in the Book of the Law.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is as plain as I can say it, I try to do the things contained in the law,

Just what did you do today, or yesterday, or in the last month,
that is contained in the law ?

 

[PeaceB]

Why does everyone who loves the law automatically assume those who love grace feel as though they can do whatever they want? That's a huge leap and completely unwarranted.

First, what law are you referring to? The Mosaic Law or the Law of Christ (which St. Paul denotes that he is under).

Second, I love everything that is given from God. Do you not? If by your statement above you intend to imply that I do not love God's grace, then please let me dispel this notion.

Third, I never said nor assumed that you feel as though you can do whatever you want.

In fact, we have a higher law than Israel had. We are told to love God and love our neighbour (Eph 5:2, 1 Thes 4:9, 2 Tim 1:7, et. al.). I'm not going to lie to you because I have to follow some law. No, I won't lie to you because I love you.

But yet you still lie, and in doing so demonstrate that you have not loved your neighbor.

It's a much higher plane of existence, to be sure. That plane was simply not available in the OT. Jesus' resurrection made it available for you and I to have the love of God (agape) dwell within. Israel didn't have that love (agape) so the law was instituted to keep them somewhat on track until the saviour could come. The law was their schoolmaster (Gal 3:24) to keep them from wiping themselves off the earth until Christ came. After Jesus' resurrection the schoolmaster was no longer needed (Gal 3:25).

Here, I generally agree.

That's what I meant when I said born again believers can operate on a higher plane if they so desire.

And what if you choose not to cooperate with God's grace, choose not to operate on a higher plane, choose not to love God and not loving your neighbor, as his grace enables you to do so?

Of course if you want to follow the law for righteousness you can, but you must follow ALL of it (Gal 5:3). One little slip and you're out (Gal 3:10)! Better stick with grace.

In Galatians St. Paul is speaking to those who would seek to justify themselves under the Mosiac law. But St. Paul nowhere states that under grace one may commit any type of sin without losing one's inheritance. I quoted you one passage of Hebrews above that makes that point clear, and Galatians also makes the same point clear:

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,d drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

OK. This is as plain as I can say it, I try to do the things contained in the law, not because I'm required to but because I love. I want others to see my life as an example of the love of God, not because it is required, but because I love God and want to do his will.

Yes, this is the ideal for all Christians. We should all strive to obey God because we love him.

But if tomorrow you choose to engage in "sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,drunkenness, orgies, and things like these" do not be surprised if you do "not inherit the kingdom of God" as St. Paul warns you and me.

The point is that God requires you to cooperate with the grace that he freely gives to you.

 

[rrobsr]

I did not make that assumption.



All of the commands in the NT are based upon the commands in the OT, and the command to love is no different. The Israelites were were command to love God (Deuteronomy 6:5) and to love their neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), so the NT is simply reiterating OT commands. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law as being God's instructions for how to love him and how to love our neighbor and in John 14:15 that if we love him then we will obey his commands, so obedience to God's commands has always been about expressing our love. In Galatians 5:14, it says that loving fulfills the entire Law, which is true because that is what the Law is essentially about how to do.



Having no more need for schoolmaster is not at all the same thing as having no more need for need for what they taught you. When 1st grade student moves on to the 2nd grade, their new teacher doesn't tell them to forget everything that they were taught, but rather they build upon what they were taught. Someone can not move on to algebra by forgetting everything that they were taught about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. If someone were to disregard everything they were taught, then they would need to go back under the schoolmaster. Now that Jesus has come, we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to act according to the attributes of God, his holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness, (Matthew 23:23) and other fruits the Spirit (Exodus 34:6-7). We also have the Spirit, who has the role of leading us in obedience to God's Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).



[Staff edit]

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith was what of the weightier matters of the Law and obedience to it is straightforwardly about having faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live according to His attributes. So the Book of the Law is of faith and Abraham is the Father of our faith, but man-made work of law are not and by relying on our works of law will put us under a curse because we are failing to live by faith in the Book of the Law.

I guess I did misunderstand that which I quoted from you. Sorry about that. I hope the following is appropriate and not offensive.

Instead of continually monitoring my conduct, I spend my time trying to learn who I am in Christ Jesus by studying God's word every day. The more I learn about God (from the Bible, not tradition) the more amazed I am about him, the more I want to serve him, and the more like him I walk. Over the years, my behaviour has changed all by itself. That shouldn't be a surprise for any Christian. In short, Christians grow and mature by putting on the word of God in their minds, not be keeping tally of themselves against the law of Moses. Let's face it, we know we can't follow the law, but we keep trying and beating ourselves up every time we slip. God's not looking at the flesh, so why the heck should we? It leads to nothing but doubt, fear, and self condemnation. I regret saying it, but some of the most pathetic people I know are regular church going Christians. I'm not saying everybody who goes to church is pathetic nor am I saying that he church makes them pathetic. I'm not assigning blame to anyone or anything. They are pathetic because they are full of condemnation and a feeling of unworthiness, because it is obvious that they keep on screwing up and disobey some OT law. Well, so has every individual who's ever lived, so why get so upset? That's all in the flesh and the flesh profits a big fat zip, zero (1 Cor 13:3).

I don't "make" me anything. God made me and he did a perfect job. The "making" is done. I just need to learn more about that new creation he made in me.

My flesh is dead and my life is hidden in Christ Jesus (Col 3:3). As far as God is concerned the matter is settled. It was settled when Christ rose from the dead. No point in trying to make that dead flesh conform to the law. It didn't do any good before we got born again. Why do we think it'll suddenly do us some good now? But I guess it comes up again and again in the church because there has always been believers who want to put themselves and others under the law. Even Paul, 2,000 years ago, had the same problem with the believers (Gal 3:1). It'll probably be that way till he returns. The good news: then we'll know the true "us" as we are known right now by God(1 John 3:2). He sees us, right now, this very day, as justified, made righteous, and seated on his right hand in the heavenlys and so much more. I'm sure you've seen all of this in Paul's letters to the church. Moses was the man of God for Israel. Paul was the man of God to born again believers. Sure, we can learn from the OT (Rom 15:4) - for the record: I do not advocate getting rid of it), but it is not for our rule of faith and believing, our doctrine. The doctrine to which you and I adhere to was given to Paul by God in the seven church epistles.

I guess we are saying more of less the same thing about grace/law? My original post was meant to be nothing more than a simple little ditty that would stick in the mind of and edify the believers as they went about their day. I hope it gave you a bit of joy. We have an awfully big God!

God bless

 

[rrobsr]

First, what law are you referring to? The Mosaic Law or the Law of Christ (which St. Paul denotes that he is under).

Second, I love everything that is given from God. Do you not? If by your statement above you intend to imply that I do not love God's grace, then please let me dispel this notion.

Third, I never said nor assumed that you feel as though you can do whatever you want.

But yet you still lie, and in doing so demonstrate that you have not loved your neighbor.


Here, I generally agree.

And what if you choose not to cooperate with God's grace, choose not to operate on a higher plane, choose not to love God and not loving your neighbor, as his grace enables you to do so?


In Galatians St. Paul is speaking to those who would seek to justify themselves under the Mosiac law. But St. Paul nowhere states that under grace one may commit any type of sin without losing one's inheritance. I quoted you one passage of Hebrews above that makes that point clear, and Galatians also makes the same point clear:

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,d drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

Yes, this is the ideal for all Christians. We should all strive to obey God because we love him.

But if tomorrow you choose to engage in "sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy,drunkenness, orgies, and things like these" do not be surprised if you do "not inherit the kingdom of God" as St. Paul warns you and me.

The point is that God requires you to cooperate with the grace that he freely gives to you.

I never doubted your love of grace. Sorry if I implied that.

If I choose not to operate the love of God in me then it doesn't get operated. That's all. Myself and/or someone else may miss a blessing from God at that moment, but nobody's going to burn for eternity over my failure. You better be glad for that because I have my share of failures! I have free will. I can either address someone with God's love or the worlds wisdom. It's always my choice. Of course I prefer and strive for the former, God's love.

Yes, I still do tell the occasional lie. Jesus knew about all of them and even the ones I don't know about yet. He took all of them, past, present, and future, and left them in the tomb. And God doesn't look inside that tomb any more. Why should you or I look? Look to the new creation he put in you the moment you were born again. That's where your true life is (Col 3:3).

Are you certain of your future in the new heaven and new earth, or do you have doubts? If your future is dependant on your following the law I would expect you to have some doubt, but I hope that's not the case. God doesn't want you to fret about who you are. He made you perfect in Christ Jesus and you will be with the Lord Jesus Christ for eternity in the new heavens and the new earth. That's really something to look forward to. If you really understand that, a "bad day" will be rare indeed.

 

[pescador]

It is important to understand to whom something is written and when it was written. As far as to whom, it could be Jew, Gentile, or Church of God. What God says to Israel is radically different than what he says to born again believers. As far as the when it was written, things changed when Christ rose from the dead. Again, the way God dealt with Israel is radically different than how he deals with the Church of the Body, the born again believers.

If someone doesn't keep these things straight, they will never understand the greatness of God's plan of redemption. It would be impossible.

Truly excellent post!! I wish that more people would keep these principles in mind instead of lifting verses out of context, then applying them (incorrectly) to 21st century living.

 

[rrobsr]

The law equates with all our strivings and all our doing to be justified before God

Grace equates to God doing all and being all that results in our justification to those who believe.

So simple and beautifully said! Grace is our joy, not the law.

 

[rrobsr]

[Staff edit].

If we understand what God has done for us, we will just want to walk according to his word. Furthermore, as each day passes that we continue in his word, we will just naturally, seemingly without effort, want more and more to follow his will. We don't have to grit our teeth and force ourselves to walk in a Godly manner. We just learn from the scriptures what God has done for us and then our desire will go to him, not the world.

 

[rrobsr]

The word of God is the will of God.