Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia

jckstraw72 · Nov 12, 2010

yes the Orthodox Church considers Pope Leo to be Saint.

but veneration only has the appearance of worship if you refuse to accept the notion of veneration. i understand and accept veneration, thus, veneration does not appear to me as worship.

Rick Otto · Nov 12, 2010

Standing Up said:
In all fairness, Pope Leo fretted about it and seems to have done his best to disassociate the two.

Having therefore so confident a hope, dearly beloved, abide firm in the Faith in which you are built: lest that same tempter whose 132tyranny over you Christ has already destroyed, win you back again with any of his wiles, and mar even the joys of the present festival by his deceitful art, misleading simpler souls with the pestilential notion of some to whom this our solemn feast day seems to derive its honour, not so much from the nativity of Christ as, according to them, from the rising of the new sun
NPNF-212. Leo the Great, Gregory the Great | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

New sun is a reference to winter solstice.

What would Peter do?

ivebeenshown · Nov 12, 2010

jckstraw72 said:
yes the Orthodox Church considers Pope Leo to be Saint.

but veneration only has the appearance of worship if you refuse to accept the notion of veneration. i understand and accept veneration, thus, veneration does not appear to me as worship.

...but how does it appear to those in Pakistan, for instance? You're not lost, so you have liberty. But they are the people that need Christ and I doubt icon veneration helps.

jckstraw72 · Nov 12, 2010

ivebeenshown said:
...but how does it appear to those in Pakistan, for instance? You're not lost, so you have liberty. But they are the people that need Christ and I doubt icon veneration helps.

if they truly come to accept Christ and His accomplishments for us then icon veneration will fall right into place.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 12, 2010

Dark_Lite said:
It's a theological concept, although the words (or their roots) might show up somewhere in Scripture. It's kind of like asking for the word "Trinity" in the Bible. It isn't there.

I did find a few forms of the word "latria" using a concordance.
Interesting 2 of those times it [#3000] is used in Revelation

Young) Revelation 7:15 because of this are they before the throne of God, and they do service/latreuousin <3000> (5719) to Him day and night in His sanctuary, and He who is sitting upon the throne shall tabernacle over them;

Young) Revelation 22:3 and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve/latreusousin <3000> (5692) Him,

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2999&t=KJV

Strong's Number G2999 matches the Greek λατρεία (latreia), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2999. latreia lat-ri'-ah from 3000; ministration of God, i.e. worship:--(divine) service.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3000&t=KJV

Strong's Number G3000 matches the Greek λατρεύω (latreuō), which occurs 21 times in 21 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

3000. latreuo lat-ryoo'-o from latris (a hired menial); to minister (to God), i.e. render religious homage:--serve, do the service, worship(-per).

Dark_Lite · Nov 12, 2010

Rick Otto said:
Yeah. All other forms of idolitry are off the table, never mind we have a pope saying not to even look like a heathen (in this case, sun worshiper).
Good point.

Just like the whole "if you bow at something you're worshiping it" argument, both of you are taking this to an invalid logical extreme. Perhaps you remember that thread started in response to the Santa thread, wherein we determined that pagans breathe air. It was decided that we should stop breathing air to not be like the pagans. That's the road you're going down.

Pagans pray.
Pagans worship.
Pagans are theists.
...

So on and so forth.

Tyndale · Nov 12, 2010

Dark_Lite said:
Just like the whole "if you bow at something you're worshiping it" argument, both of you are taking this to an invalid logical extreme. Perhaps you remember that thread started in response to the Santa thread, wherein we determined that pagans breathe air. It was decided that we should stop breathing air to not be like the pagans. That's the road you're going down.

Ok. this isn't progression

Standing Up · Nov 12, 2010

ivebeenshown said:
...but how does it appear to those in Pakistan, for instance? You're not lost, so you have liberty. But they are the people that need Christ and I doubt icon veneration helps.

Indeed.

1 Cor. 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

But Paul is talking about meat in the marketplace. I go to a supermarket now, so it doesn't apply to me. I bow to a statue, which is what you see, but in my heart, I'm really bowing to St. Soandso.

Crazy stuff as someone mentioned. John---love. That's about it.

jckstraw72 · Nov 12, 2010

how did the idea of God becoming man and dying seem to the Jews? maybe we made a mistake by telling them about it ...

ebia · Nov 12, 2010

ivebeenshown said:
...but how does it appear to those in Pakistan, for instance? You're not lost, so you have liberty. But they are the people that need Christ and I doubt icon veneration helps.

There's always a tension between trying to keep the faith clear and simple so as not to cause those to stumble, without loosing the full scope and dumbing it down. The Eucharist has always been the centre of huge misunderstandings - yet we cannot drop it just to stop people being put off by those misunderstandings.

ivebeenshown · Nov 12, 2010

jckstraw72 said:
if they truly come to accept Christ and His accomplishments for us then icon veneration will fall right into place.

Maybe they would come to accept Christ more easily if we gave them less reason to view us as the pagan ones.

Standing Up · Nov 12, 2010

ebia said:
There's always a tension between trying to keep the faith clear and simple so as not to cause those to stumble, without loosing the full scope and dumbing it down. The Eucharist has always been the centre of huge misunderstandings - yet we cannot drop it just to stop people being put off by those misunderstandings.

It's kinda like this discussion. It's crystal clear if we hold to what was first taught, rather than to those evolved things. Believe this is Irenaeus:

For when the Greeks, having arrested the slaves of Christian catechumens, then used force against them, in order to learn from them some secret thing [practised] among Christians, these slaves, having nothing to say that would meet the wishes of their tormentors, except that they had heard from their masters that the divine communion was the body and blood of Christ, and imagining that it was actually flesh and blood, gave their inquisitors answer to that effect. Then these latter, assuming such to be the case with regard to the practices of Christians, gave information regarding it to other Greeks, and sought to compel the martyrs Sanctus and http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.viii.xiii.html?highlight=blandina#highlightBlandina to confess, under the influence of torture, [that the allegation was correct]. To these men Blandina replied very admirably in these words: How should those persons endure such [accusations], who, for the sake of the practice [of piety], did not avail themselves even of the flesh that was permitted [them to eat]?
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.viii.xiii.html

Rick Otto · Nov 12, 2010

Standing Up said:
It's kinda like this discussion. It's crystal clear if we hold to what was first taught, rather than to those evolved things. Believe this is Irenaeus:

For when the Greeks, having arrested the slaves of Christian catechumens, then used force against them, in order to learn from them some secret thing [practised] among Christians, these slaves, having nothing to say that would meet the wishes of their tormentors, except that they had heard from their masters that the divine communion was the body and blood of Christ, and imagining that it was actually flesh and blood, gave their inquisitors answer to that effect. Then these latter, assuming such to be the case with regard to the practices of Christians, gave information regarding it to other Greeks, and sought to compel the martyrs Sanctus and Blandina to confess, under the influence of torture, [that the allegation was correct]. To these men Blandina replied very admirably in these words: How should those persons endure such [accusations], who, for the sake of the practice [of piety], did not avail themselves even of the flesh that was permitted [them to eat]?
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.viii.xiii.html

"Actually" as in "real"?nm
Was Iraneaus clearly in the literal or figurative camp on the eucharist?
Here it sounds like he was in the metaphor camp.

LittleLambofJesus · Nov 12, 2010

Some stuff I found on "dulia/hperdulia".

Hyperdulia Definition. Crossword Dictionary.
"On the other hand, the veneration (hyperdulia) of the Blessed Virgin Mary was certainly I came across an intelligent blog about the Jewish tablet that describes another supposed"
— Marmalade - semi-random musings, my.opera.com
"There is not a distinction as such, dulia and hyperdulia are of the same essence. with dulia rather than hyperdulia (following on from your thought)"
— The Top Five Reasons Jesus Was A Catholic | Spectrum, spectrummagazine.org

"MusicaSacra Forum. MusicaSacra Home. All Discussions. Categories. Job Openings. Search. Donate to the CMAA. Categories. Feeds. RSS2. ATOM and does not understand the nature of latria or even the finer nuances of the attitudinal dispositions of dulia or hyperdulia"

— the pale skin lover: His journal, music and art, angelfire.com

"In this older usage, Catholics did worship Mary, but it was hyperdulia and not latria that they offered her. In this older usage, Catholics did worship Mary, but it was hyperdulia and not latria that they offered her"
— Speak Your Mind Catholic Apologetics Forum by Patrick Madrid, surprisedbytruth.com
"Sermons, Liturgical Resources, Photos, and history of Redeemer Lutheran Church hyperdulia, when the. Virgin Mary is adored, and here they included the humanity of Christ, and. called [this worship] hyperdulia"
— Re: God is a Man, redeemerfortwayne.org
"Charlotte Mason-inspired Catholic homeschool discussion forums. Hyperdulia allows you to have the loftiest thoughts, so that our finite minds, can begin to fully appreciate the magnificence of God"
— 4Real Forums: How far do you take devotion to Our Lady?, 4real.thenetsmith.com
"This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone) This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone)"

— dotCommonweal " Blog Archive " Dulia, Hyperdulia, or Hyperbole?, commonwealmagazine.org

Rick Otto · Nov 12, 2010

I'm accepting microdulia if anybody's interested.

jckstraw72 · Nov 12, 2010

ivebeenshown said:
Maybe they would come to accept Christ more easily if we gave them less reason to view us as the pagan ones.

we dont change the faith to make it more palatable to various people. if they are unable to look past the superficial level of anything how are they even really able to accept Christ?

Rdr Iakovos · Nov 12, 2010

Standing Up said:
Pope Leo I would know how to vote:

even some Christians think it is so proper to do this that, before entering the blessed Apostle Peters basilica, which is dedicated to the One Living and true God, when they have mounted the steps which lead to the raised platform, they turn round and bow themselves towards the rising sun and with bent neck do homage to its brilliant orb. We are full of grief and vexation that this should happen, which is partly due to the fault of ignorance and partly to the spirit of heathenism: because although some of them do perhaps worship the Creator of that fair light rather than the Light itself, which is His creature, yet we must abstain even from the appearance of this observance: for if one who has abandoned the worship of gods, finds it in our own worship, will he not hark back again to this fragment of his old superstition, as if it were allowable, when he sees it to be common both to Christians and to infidels?
NPNF-212. Leo the Great, Gregory the Great | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Yep- clear connection between paying honor to the godly ones, and worshipping the sun.

Up next for me: human sacrifices. Yep, the Eucharist has driven me to it.

Rick Otto · Nov 12, 2010

If we're unable to be Christ-like on even a superficial level, how can we be trusted on the larger issues?

Rick Otto · Nov 12, 2010

quote=Rdr Iakovos;Yep- clear connection between paying honor to the godly ones, and worshipping the sun.

Finaly some appreciation for how profiling affects street cred!

Up next for me: human sacrifices. Yep, the Eucharist has driven me to it.

Too many late-night-early-morning vespers can make us cranky.

Rdr Iakovos · Nov 12, 2010

ivebeenshown said:
...but how does it appear to those in Pakistan, for instance? You're not lost, so you have liberty. But they are the people that need Christ and I doubt icon veneration helps.

Neither do movies or daughters without head coverings.

If you wish to do all that is required to NOT offend Muslim sensibility, in the vaguest of hopes that they'll join the team, well, see you in Mecca.

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