Ladies Only, Please.

1vel · Jan 31, 2005

I have a couple of questions:

Obviously, no touching is in order for at least 7 days from the beginning of the menses. I can't tell from scripture quoted whether or not this should be 14 or not.

Do we need to observe this? Havn't we been "washed" in the Blood of the Lamb?

Which is the "norm"? 7 or 14 days? Neither? Obviously, a sacrifice can't be made if the husband touches the wife, so is it just a matter of asking for forgiveness (through Yeshua)?

Also, does anyone here visit a Mikvah? Just wondering.

Incidentally, this is fascinating. I actually like the idea of being "off limits" for 7 days, as I can see there being a renewal of love/passion after a TOTAL break from one another.

Blessings;

Vel

1vel · Jan 31, 2005

Oh, I meant to tell you that dh was horrified when I mentioned this to him!

Blessings

Sephania · Jan 31, 2005

They all are but gentle persuasion by showing them the scriptures and explaining the "holiness" and love of it usually will make them come around.

ShirChadash · Jan 31, 2005

Henaynei said:
19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood (her menstral flow or any other blood), she shall be put apart seven days (during the time of her issue of blood): and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.(this is the time of her flow until there is no more evidence of any blood)
[the intervening verses do not in any way state that a woman is clean after the seven days of flow have stopped - continue reading]
28 But if she be cleansed of her issue (her menstral flow or any other blood have stopped), then she shall number to herselfseven days, and after that she shall be clean. (this is the time after the flow has stopped when the clean days are counted - after which she goes to the mikvah and comes home to physically imtimately reunite with her husband)

Leviticus 15

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 19 "When a woman has a discharge, and it consists of blood from her body, she will be unclean because of her menstruation for seven days. Everyone who touches her will be unclean until evening. 20 Anything she lies on during her menstruation will become unclean, and anything she sits on will become unclean. 21 Everyone who touches her bed is to wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will remain unclean until evening. 22 Everyone who touches any furniture she was sitting on is to wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will remain unclean until evening. 23 If discharge is on the bed or the furniture she was sitting on, when he touches it he will be unclean until evening. 24 If a man sleeps with her, and [blood from] her menstruation gets on him, he will be unclean for seven days, and every bed he lies on will become unclean. [/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 25 "When a woman has a discharge of her blood for many days, though it is not the time of her menstruation, or if she has a discharge beyond her period, she will be unclean all the days of her unclean discharge, as [she is] during the days of her menstruation.26 Any bed she lies on during the days of her discharge will be like her bed during menstrual impurity; any furniture she sits on will be unclean as in her menstrual period. 27 Everyone who touches them will be unclean; he must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will remain unclean until evening. 28 When she is cured of her discharge, she is to count seven days, and after that she will be clean. 29 On the eighth day she must take two turtledoves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 30 The priest is to sacrifice one as a sin offering and the other as a burnt offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for her before the Lord because of her unclean discharge.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 31 "You must keep the Israelites from their uncleanness, so that they do not die by defiling My tabernacle that is among them. 32 This is the law for someone with a discharge: a man who has an emission of sperm, becoming unclean by it; 33 a woman who is in her menstrual period; anyone who has a discharge, whether male or female; and a man who sleeps with an unclean woman." [/font]

I read and understand this, as a whole and also in its broken down language, is saying that it is an abnormal discharge -- any abnormal vaginal discharge which indicates infection or other problems -- which requires an additional seven days. I see that this passage tells us menstruation renders a woman unclean for its duration, and ALSO any woman who continues with an uncommon discharge -- an excessively long menstrual period (again, unclean for the duration of the flow), or any discharge other than a normal menstrual period, indicating abnormality of any sort. However, a woman having a normal menstrual period, once it is completed, and no subsequent discharge indicative of infection... does not, it reads to me, require an additional seven days of separation according to this passage.

Dr. Shon · Jan 31, 2005

I just wanted to point out that my primary question wasn't really concerning marital relations. I was thinking of the professional woman who is in contact with the public on a daily basis. If she has to attend a conference, for example, does she carry an extra scarf or cushion to place in her chair? Thanks for the information.

Blueskies · Jan 31, 2005

Dr. Shon said:
I just wanted to point out that my primary question wasn't really concerning marital relations. I was thinking of the professional woman who is in contact with the public on a daily basis. If she has to attend a conference, for example, does she carry an extra scarf or cushion to place in her chair? Thanks for the information.

To that end, what of motherhood? Has anyone ever tried not to hold a baby for 7 days? Especially if one cannot afford a nanny? Not to mention discipline,care for, handle first aid, for any child between 2-13. How is it possible for a woman to touch NO ONE for seven days?

Shalom?

Sephania · Jan 31, 2005

You can not defile your children, nor another woman, I think Henaynei gave reference to that. It is only men, those who would be going to synagogue and touching the holy things.

Henaynei · Jan 31, 2005

Verse 19 if a womans discharge is blood seven days are already prescribed, but we all know that not all woman have seven days of bleeding, it is more common for five but the L-RD set it at seven none the less. If a man touches her flow he is not unclean for the day but also for seven days, so to me the uncleaness is when it is present not afterwards a whole week.

if you look carefully at wht you said you will see the "7 clean days" principle carried equally to both men AND women - the man is unclean for **7 days AFTER the last moment he has come in contact with the blood**- there is no blood present the 7 unclean days for the man, the blood was present ONLY at the moment of contact, yet he is unclean for the 7 days following - NOT 7 days of bleeding or being bloody - BOTH the man and the woman are unclean for **7 days after the last contact with blood** there is perfect semmetry here - anyone who comes in contact with blood - though it be washed from their skin and they are physically clean - are to count 7 unclean days and then wash (mikvah) and they will be counted clean

Dr. Shon · Jan 31, 2005

You can not defile your children, nor another woman, I think Henaynei gave reference to that. It is only men, those who would be going to synagogue and touching the holy things.

OH!! That helps clarify things more. Thanks.

By Grace · Jan 31, 2005

Henaynei said:
if you look carefully at wht you said you will see the "7 clean days" principle carried equally to both men AND women - the man is unclean for **7 days AFTER the last moment he has come in contact with the blood**- there is no blood present the 7 unclean days for the man, the blood was present ONLY at the moment of contact, yet he is unclean for the 7 days following - NOT 7 days of bleeding or being bloody - BOTH the man and the woman are unclean for **7 days after the last contact with blood** there is perfect semmetry here - anyone who comes in contact with blood - though it be washed from their skin and they are physically clean - are to count 7 unclean days and then wash (mikvah) and they will be counted clean

Henny, I can see what you're saying, and honestly, I can see how people could come to these conclusions. But I can also see it the other way. A woman *becomes* unclean at the *start* of her flow (when the egg is first lost and it becomes obvious there is no pregnancy), then counts 7 days, during which time her body is cleansing itself. If a man touches her, he is only unclean until evening. It's only if he has intercourse with her that he is unclean for 7 days, and that seems to make sense b/c he has taken part in the uncleanness of the death of her egg. He has to "serve" his 7 days just like she does at that time.

Henaynei · Jan 31, 2005

By Grace said:
Henny, I can see what you're saying, and honestly, I can see how people could come to these conclusions. But I can also see it the other way. A woman *becomes* unclean at the *start* of her flow (when the egg is first lost and it becomes obvious there is no pregnancy), then counts 7 days, during which time her body is cleansing itself. If a man touches her, he is only unclean until evening. It's only if he has intercourse with her that he is unclean for 7 days, and that seems to make sense b/c he has taken part in the uncleanness of the death of her egg. He has to "serve" his 7 days just like she does at that time.

ah, and this is WHY HaShem gave the rabbis authority to make halakah ( see my dignature below), so that the community might be one in this and so many more very important issues. If one family does it the 14 day way and another does it 7 day way, then the man of the 14 day family would be have been caused to sin if he sat in a chair of the 7 day woman - say at shul or at a community meal, etc...... this is only one situation where having accepted halakah brings both the individual and the community into unity before HaShem

Sephania · Feb 1, 2005

By Grace said:
Henny, I can see what you're saying, and honestly, I can see how people could come to these conclusions. But I can also see it the other way. A woman *becomes* unclean at the *start* of her flow (when the egg is first lost and it becomes obvious there is no pregnancy), then counts 7 days, during which time her body is cleansing itself. If a man touches her, he is only unclean until evening. It's only if he has intercourse with her that he is unclean for 7 days, and that seems to make sense b/c he has taken part in the uncleanness of the death of her egg. He has to "serve" his 7 days just like she does at that time.

I kind of see this in the same way Jill, if he touches anything she sat or laid on ( which in those days and today still in some countrys) he could possibly get some of the blood on his clothing which could leak through to the skin. But as you say if he deliberatly touches it ( and I am going by when it is inside her through intercourse) then he has sinned in this and also must wait 7 days. But I dont understand that as her seven days. Hypothetically speaking he could have sex with her in her third day and then still have to count 7 days for his purification.

Sephania · Feb 1, 2005

Henaynei said:
ah, and this is WHY HaShem gave the rabbis authority to make halakah ( see my dignature below), so that the community might be one in this and so many more very important issues. If one family does it the 14 day way and another does it 7 day way, then the man of the 14 day family would be have been caused to sin if he sat in a chair of the 7 day woman - say at shul or at a community meal, etc...... this is only one situation where having accepted halakah brings both the individual and the community into unity before HaShem

I'm sorry Henaynei, I respect your opinion and learning on this but that doesn't make much sense to me. How do you figure that the man would sin? How would he even know when a woman was in Niddah? Also for those intent on the Rabbinic orthodoxy of this halacha wouldn't they be in a shul that had a separate section for the women? Isn't that one of the reasons for having that separate section?

Sephania · Feb 1, 2005

By Grace said:
A woman *becomes* unclean at the *start* of her flow (when the egg is first lost and it becomes obvious there is no pregnancy), then counts 7 days, during which time her body is cleansing itself.

Yes, I see this, when the blood appears death is announced and Shiva starts Shiva means 'seven' and perhaps this is where 'sitting Sheva' came from?

If you are free from the blood your body is cleansed and starts preparing once again for a new life. I don't see where you need seven more days to become 'pure'. This is a good way to make sure that your people are being "fruitful" but it leave a wide open gap for the enemy to come in and cause a man to sin under Yeshua's definition. Having a wife 'unavailable' for 19 days out of 28 could be torture for any man.

ShirChadash · Feb 1, 2005

Zayit said:
Yes, I see this, when the blood appears death is announced and Shiva starts Shiva means 'seven' and perhaps this is where 'sitting Sheva' came from?

If you are free from the blood your body is cleansed and starts preparing once again for a new life. I don't see where you need seven more days to become 'pure'. This is a good way to make sure that your people are being "fruitful" but it leave a wide open gap for the enemy to come in and cause a man to sin under Yeshua's definition. Having a wife 'unavailable' for 19 days out of 28 could be torture for any man.

19 days, Achoti?

By Rabbinic reckoning, most commonly, the amount of time is more actually 12 days. Some more like 14, true. Some longer, if they have a very lengthy period. Ar eyou just conjecturing it could be realllllly a logn while and so 19 days is an example? Or, I was just wondering where you got the figure of 19 in specific...

Sephania · Feb 1, 2005

I dont know if any of you noticed but this Torah observant Messianic site also explains that the Torah does not teach we have to immerse in a mikvah afterwards, this is also tradition, one that many Messianic women today can not follow even if they choose to. I think that a simple bath or shower would sufice.

It may have been in previous days that you HAD to have the extra seven days of purification, but now in Yeshua aren't we washed clean? Yes we still have to count our seven days during our time but seven more afterwards was for ritual purification if I am reading this right, has he not already washed us clean in his blood? We also must remember that a sin offering was required which shows us why this purification time was needed. I think this harkens back to the sin from the Eden, but hasn't Yeshua forgiven us that? Isn't that what he came to forgive us and wash us clean of? This is the origin isn't it? That is why some women call it the "curse".

See, the priest had to make an atonement for her, Yeshua is our High Priest and has made that atonement.

And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness." Leviticus 15:25-30

Sephania · Feb 1, 2005

Zemirah said:
19 days, Achoti?

By Rabbinic reckoning, most commonly, the amount of time is more actually 12 days. Some more like 14, true. Some longer, if they have a very lengthy period. Ar eyou just conjecturing it could be realllllly a logn while and so 19 days is an example? Or, I was just wondering where you got the figure of 19 in specific...

Shalom achoti, I was referring to a previous post I made on this thread where I stated that I had read somewhere that certain Rabbi's or sects also required a separation beginning 5 days previous to when a women thought the onset would begin. This I am sure was to ensure that he didn't become unclean accidentally in case a woman started early.

But even if this is not the rule that you follow I know sticktly speaking for myself that for about that same time (5 days) I am not exactly 'receptive' myself as that is the "PMS" timeperiod and I am crampy, bloated, my back aches, etc, I dont' have to explain to you women, eh? so I see if you deduct those days and 12( minimal reguired by O Rabbis) to 14 you are left with a maximum of 11 days per month which would also be whittled down with family responsibilities, jobs, other obligations that could interfer, time wise and tired wise .

Sephania · Feb 1, 2005

We must also read this passage concerning Niddah for it helps to interpret Vay'ikra 15

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled." Leviticus 12:2-4

Here we are speaking of giving birth to a male child. We all know that they must be circumcized on the eighth day from birth.

She gives birth and counts 7 days "according to the days of the separation" then on the 8th day the child is circumcised and she counts 33 days from then to finish her purification.
Any woman that has given birth knows that after you have a baby you are not blood free, these are not 'white days' so this gives 40 days for a male child for the bleeding to stop. Not 5-7 dyas then count seven more then circumcise then add 33.

ShirChadash · Feb 1, 2005

Zayit said:
Shalom achoti, I was referring to a previous post I made on this thread where I stated that I had read somewhere that certain Rabbi's or sects also required a separation beginning 5 days previous to when a women thought the onset would begin. This I am sure was to ensure that he didn't become unclean accidentally in case a woman started early.

:o I missed that post! Hm, that's interesting, I never knew that any sect or rabbis had determined an additional time-frame before the onset. Thanks for restating it -- sorry i missed the post where you shared that. I'll go back and re-read for it too.

By Grace · Feb 1, 2005

Zayit said:
But as you say if he deliberatly touches it ( and I am going by when it is inside her through intercourse) then he has sinned in this and also must wait 7 days. But I dont understand that as her seven days. Hypothetically speaking he could have sex with her in her third day and then still have to count 7 days for his purification.

I agree!

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