labeled legalist

[love2obey]

In my years studying the bible, believing and following Christ, there is always a word that is labeled on a person who dearly believes in the bible as a whole as it is written. And that label is LEGALIST. Now the thing that gets my attention the most is that usually the person that is doing the labeling is someone that is not willing to live by the law, all that God has to teach us with the bible as it is written. They are always looking for a way around the truth, that loophole so they can continue being themselves as they like it.

I do agree that there is a right way and a wrong way to tell someone the truth but still it is the truth no matter what. Therefore, are we to stop believing and preaching the truth just because those that are not willing to accept it get upset with us and call us name?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I agree 100% with you.... Satan does not like us proclaiming the Law as God's only standard and will use others to attack us and what we believe. You know you are on the right track when people are trying to shut you down... you never hear others say bad things about Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, etc, even on widely differing doctrinal viewpoints, however, mention that you are SDA and the attacks start almost immediately. Sadly, as sister White warned us, the most aggressive against truth are former Adventists... Bob S on here is a good example of that. He is so filled with hate for Adventism and Ellen White that you can almost feel his blood pressure rising when he responds to one of us (or at least to me)

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Welcome to the forum btw... I hope you had a blessed Sabbath!

 

[CaptainToad]

Its not that simple.

Very often I encountered an approach within the SDA that keeping the commandments is love. If you love someone you are not gonna steal from him. While that might be true, I think you are not gonna necessarily steal from someone you dont love. Jesus gave us two commandments of love - I guess He did so because He realized there is a lack of love among the people, even though they were keepers of law (and very much so I guess).

I think SDAs got that label because they put the commandments first and cannot see beyond that. I am not judging anyone here, not saying all SDAs are the same - its just my observation and experience.
The commandments and all other imposed rules become the essence of the faith, the standard by which to judge and be judged (remember that funny spot about that SDA warning system? )

I am not saying I am right and somebody is wrong - but Love is the most important aspect of the faith. And this is where the SDA is clearly lacking - SDAs even use the letter to the seventh church to justify its current state. Which means, everyone becoming an SDA is entering a church without faith and love. Could be quite a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Now, if you dont have faith and love, and start preaching the law to people, who actually might have faith and love, then I guess you will be labelled a legalist. But thats just my theory.

 

[love2obey]

It is not about 1 or 2 commandments but all that the bible has to teach us. It is the word of God and God is love, therefore, it is love the driving force behind it. Do you know that when I dont steal or lie to you, I first show how much I love God, then How much I love you and also love myself. The same can be said about gossip, wearing the wrong attire and so forth.
People are so hanged up on it is 1 or 2 or 10 and forgotten that before the 2 tablets were written on, God's word, which is the law of the land by which all that lives has to live by was active.
When Jesus spoke to the people in his days, He didnt use the 10 commandments to teach or guide them. His Father words enlighten and empower Him. He spoke and took the experience of those before Him. The same could be said about the apostles. Paul dealt with the believers that were going the wrong way after knowing what was right. it was not about the 10 commandments but the truth, what is right in the eyes of God.

 

[love2obey]

I agree 100% with you.... Satan does not like us proclaiming the Law as God's only standard and will use others to attack us and what we believe. You know you are on the right track when people are trying to shut you down... you never hear others say bad things about Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, etc, even on widely differing doctrinal viewpoints, however, mention that you are SDA and the attacks start almost immediately. Sadly, as sister White warned us, the most aggressive against truth are former Adventists... Bob S on here is a good example of that. He is so filled with hate for Adventism and Ellen White that you can almost feel his blood pressure rising when he responds to one of us (or at least to me)

On regard to the ex or former SDA's, we cant expect nothing less. the best I have learn to accept that kind of criticism, is like the spouse that justifies living the relationship by belittling, trashing, the other. That is nothing new. Satan has been talking trash about God since he couldnt be God in heaven. Sadly, he convinced a large amounts of the angels in heaven and now has them working his magic on earth. Each and every one of those fallen angels is today a demon that is loose on earth. The bible has a term that best but yet harshly address that, you should know them by the fruit of the spirit: son of God or son of the devil.
Lucifer's ego and selfish ways were not accepted in heaven so heaven was no longer home for him. In the book Step to Christ, Sister White mentions that as we are in our sinful nature, we will not like to live in heaven. it is the reason why me need to change before we get there. After reading that passage, it came to mind why to Lucifer heaven was no longer home Also why to some of our ex-church members, the SDA's teaching becomes a problem.

Blessings

 

[Dave-W]

you never hear others say bad things about Baptists, Anglicans, Pentecostals, etc, even on widely differing doctrinal viewpoints, however, mention that you are SDA and the attacks start almost immediately.

Try being a Messianic .....

But I have to disagree, at least as far as the Pentecostals and Baptists are considered. They are some of the worst legalists going. And most of the rest of the church world knows it. Compared to the United Pentecostal and Fundy Baptists, even the most conservative SDA congregation would be considered "relaxed."

 

[CaptainToad]

Try being a Messianic .....

But I have to disagree, at least as far as the Pentecostals and Baptists are considered. They are some of the worst legalists going. And most of the rest of the church world knows it. Compared to the United Pentecostal and Fundy Baptists, even the most conservative SDA congregation would be considered "relaxed."

Wow, I didnt know that!
So what exactly makes them such tought legalists? Could you provide some examples? I cant really imagine anyone being more legalist than the SDA but then I dont know too much about the other congregations mentioned.

 

[Dave-W]

So what exactly makes them such tought legalists? Could you provide some examples?

Sure.

The independant pentecostal church I went to in grade school taught that you were only saved a few seconds at a time. You committed sins you completely unaware of all the time and every time you did, you lost salvation.

The UPC has very strict rules on dress and jewelry (similar to SDA of 50 years ago) plus the absolute prohibition on women ever cutting their hair or wearing makeup. You have to be baptized by their formula or you are not saved. You have to speak in tongues or you are not saved.

The Fundamentalist Baptists practice something called "Christian Separation." That means they cannot even speak to someone who claims to be a christian but does not adhere to their take on everything. They routinely criticize the Southern Baptists for being way too lenient and sinful. "Baptocostals" and "BaptoCatholics" are among their favorite names to call their "errant" brothers. They also are very restrictive on musical styles.

Here is one example: [WARNING: offensive language}

We believe that Contemporary Christian Music, or “CCM”, had its historic roots in Rock-n-Roll, harlot-house music, and other sensual, sexual, and worldly music. CCM music is therefore wicked, worldly music with some “Christian” words added to make the music seem “Christian”. With its strong ecumenical leanings, we believe that Contemporary Christian Music, or “CCM”, has become a central part of the Great Apostasy by helping to draw people away from Biblical truth, and join them together as they move towards the Great Roman Catholic harlot. We therefore fully reject the music of the late Rich Mullins, Bill Gather, and other CCM musicians. We also reject the work of churches such as Calvary Chapel and Saddleback Church which have been instrumental in promoting wicked and worldly Contemporary Christian Music.

http://www.fundamentalistbaptistchurch.org/whatwebelieve.htm

And from another site:

Jesus and the Bible must come first to the Fundamentalist Baptist. Also, a family member cannot make a Fundamentalist Baptist miss church on Sunday, go to Las Vegas, or force a parent to allow his or her child to dance, or to commit any other abominable sin. Once again, Jesus and the Bible must always come first to a Fundamentalist Baptist. All other authority in life must always come after Jesus and the Bible to a true Fundamentalist Baptist.

http://www.fundamentalistbaptist.com/

 

[CaptainToad]

Sure.

The independant pentecostal church I went to in grade school taught that you were only saved a few seconds at a time. You committed sins you completely unaware of all the time and every time you did, you lost salvation.

The UPC has very strict rules on dress and jewelry (similar to SDA of 50 years ago) plus the absolute prohibition on women ever cutting their hair or wearing makeup. You have to be baptized by their formula or you are not saved. You have to speak in tongues or you are not saved.

The Fundamentalist Baptists practice something called "Christian Separation." That means they cannot even speak to someone who claims to be a christian but does not adhere to their take on everything. They routinely criticize the Southern Baptists for being way too lenient and sinful. "Baptocostals" and "BaptoCatholics" are among their favorite names to call their "errant" brothers. They also are very restrictive on musical styles.

Here is one example: [WARNING: offensive language}

http://www.fundamentalistbaptistchurch.org/whatwebelieve.htm

And from another site:

http://www.fundamentalistbaptist.com/

WOW!!!



Just btw I always liked reggae music - so I guess me, still listening to reggae (and some gospel reggae) would make me quite a bad brother

Really, I have had my share in my life, I dont really wanna deal with fundametalist approaches. Still, good to know, there are people out there who take things to the next level.

Losing salvation each second and (maybe) regaining it would get me to a mental asylum sooner or later.

 

[farout]

In my years studying the bible, believing and following Christ, there is always a word that is labeled on a person who dearly believes in the bible as a whole as it is written. And that label is LEGALIST. Now the thing that gets my attention the most is that usually the person that is doing the labeling is someone that is not willing to live by the law, all that God has to teach us with the bible as it is written. They are always looking for a way around the truth, that loophole so they can continue being themselves as they like it.

I do agree that there is a right way and a wrong way to tell someone the truth but still it is the truth no matter what. Therefore, are we to stop believing and preaching the truth just because those that are not willing to accept it get upset with us and call us name?

I don't take terms to heart. Liberal, conservative, legalists, dogmatic, all these have meanings to the person calling the other person these names. But how do we know what these names really mea to the person calling us these names.

Now Ignorant, hard hearted. rude, we pretty much all agree on these names. I have said my liberal friends call me fundamental, but my fundamental friends call me liberal. So I wonder what I am. I best call my self "Follower".

 

[CaptainToad]

I don't take terms to heart. Liberal, conservative, legalists, dogmatic, all these have meanings to the person calling the other person these names. But how do we know what these names really mea to the person calling us these names.

Now Ignorant, hard hearted. rude, we pretty much all agree on these names. I have said my liberal friends call me fundamental, but my fundamental friends call me liberal. So I wonder what I am. I best call my self "Follower".

Exactly!

There is a continuum of understanding. Its all about interpretation. Someone who drinks one beer a day may be called a drunkard by some people. Other people who drink like 10 beers a day may not even notice that guy is drinkink regularly.

It all depends where we are coming from and how we view things. I always wondered if there is a standard at all by which we can measure and judge things. For some people there is and for some people there isnt. Can both be right?

 

[love2obey]

When it comes to judging others, it is like no other brand of justice. People pass judgment base on the information that they acquire and process the information based on their own prejudice: likes, dislikes, personal opinions or interpretations of what is the truth.
at the end of the day, is it the truth? when it comes to bible teachings we are not far of the truth as anyone other decision that we make. Sadly, we tend to discuss bible teachings forgetting the basics, in the beginning.
We can all form our opinion about anything that the bible has to teach us and with the bible move away from bible teachings, so we have so many religions.
For instance, if it was not that in Gen 2:17, were it is clearly stated what is sin and the consequences of it, we would be having those discussions. It is so clear for all to understand that since it was told to Adam and not Eve, Adam is the one held accountable and not EVE. So does the bible teaches us.
It saddens me to hear some of the bible teaching that is some time present. I can only think one thing and one thing only, do we read the same bible. IT clearly states it: in the beginning. And the purpose, of all that the bible has to teach us, is to restore in us that which was lost in the beginning so we could once again be like God.
Let get is straight, no sin can be found against us. Not even a sinful thought, if we are to be once again be in the presence of God as Adam did prior to sinning.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I always wondered if there is a standard at all by which we can measure and judge things.

If the Holy scriptures are not this standard, then what are we doing? Are we then practicing Christianity or a religion of our own desires.

The Bible is replete with examples of those that thought they were doing God's will but were really only serving their own prideful desires. Doing it our own way, no matter how well intentioned, does not make it pleasing to God.

Whenever I contemplate things being done today, I think of the example of the Israelites and the surrounding heathen nations. I don't think for a minute that when Israel turned to the idols of the other nations they did it quickly but slowly over time. The slippery slope usually becomes apparent when we are so far down the hill that we then justify the behaviour as ok in God's eyes and we feel the climb back to His Holy and Righteous ways seem too "legalistic". How are we going to behave when we come into God's presence and abide with the Father and Son for eternity? Have the Holy angels changed their mode of worship in the countless ages since they were created? Imo, God has already made ample provision for our limited understanding and frailty of sinfulness in how He expects us to approach Him and to reflect His Spirit to the world.

 

[Gabriel Anton]

People are now like the image of Adam and Eve, devolved a lot more though because of corruption. They want to be gods. When people want to be gods, they have to then choose their fate, whether to live or die. The devil clouds their judgment using his power and so many people just go along with what the devil tells them as important in their lives. The price of being gods.

The longer the people are in the devil's power, the more they hate the Truth of God. They despise the Truth and truly think that It is all junk. Such is the power of sin to encompass people's lives and permeate the fabric of their reality with darkness. The closer a believer is with Jesus, the sharper their Word is to the unbeliever. I would call that zeal for the Lord. So prudent use of the Word guided by the Spirit is necessary since the Word is like a Sword after all.

Being a legalist in the Word is the safest remedy for a Christian at the present time. We are facing dense darkness which is ruthlessly and efficiently corrupting and destroying anything it can envelope. I would say there is a high probability that any Christian who is not devoted to the Word will perish in this dense darkness. Two of the biggest mistakes Christians make is to underestimate the power of sin and the other one is to be lulled into a false sense of security thereby letting their guard down when in a state of spiritual war because they believe they are saved no matter what. The result of these actions is utter catastrophe of an unimaginable, unbelievable and incredibly biblical scale of truly epic proportions which may even trigger the Second Coming to prevent the human race from extinction, destruction and oblivion.

Praise be to Jesus.

 

[CaptainToad]

If the Holy scriptures are not this standard, then what are we doing? Are we then practicing Christianity or a religion of our own desires.

The Bible is replete with examples of those that thought they were doing God's will but were really only serving their own prideful desires. Doing it our own way, no matter how well intentioned, does not make it pleasing to God.

Whenever I contemplate things being done today, I think of the example of the Israelites and the surrounding heathen nations. I don't think for a minute that when Israel turned to the idols of the other nations they did it quickly but slowly over time. The slippery slope usually becomes apparent when we are so far down the hill that we then justify the behaviour as ok in God's eyes and we feel the climb back to His Holy and Righteous ways seem too "legalistic". How are we going to behave when we come into God's presence and abide with the Father and Son for eternity? Have the Holy angels changed their mode of worship in the countless ages since they were created? Imo, God has already made ample provision for our limited understanding and frailty of sinfulness in how He expects us to approach Him and to reflect His Spirit to the world.

Its a slippery topic. I agree with you the Holy Scriptures should be the standard. However, as can be seen, there are so many differing opinions, not just among churches but also within. There is room for interpretation.

Let me give you an example:

You have a child. The child grows up in a secular world. The only contact with the spiritual world is through you (his parent) and the church on Saturday morning. Other than that its totally in the world.
Of course this child will have to interact with the world in one way or another.
Now, the child wants to watch Television programs.

Do you allow that?

The bible doesnt eplicitly speak about Television (for known reason). However, you can easily find verses that hint at a non-television life, I guess. (Dont really want to look for those now).

So what do you do?

Do you allow your child to watch Television?
Generally?
Under your supervision? Only selected Tv-shows...
Not at all?

What do you do?

 

[CaptainToad]

Just as a sidenote: I met people (from other churches), who dont watch television - they dont even have a TV at home. Their children grow up without television in their life.

Most people in the SDA have a Tv - and use it.

Is there a right or wrong in this scenario?

Does it depend on what you choose to watch?

Isnt it all a waste of time?

Would it be better not to watch Television at all?

Is someone who doesnt own a Tv closer to God?

---

 

[love2obey]

Just as a sidenote: I met people (from other churches), who dont watch television - they dont even have a TV at home. Their children grow up without television in their life.

Most people in the SDA have a Tv - and use it.

Is there a right or wrong in this scenario?

Does it depend on what you choose to watch?

Isnt it all a waste of time?

Would it be better not to watch Television at all?

Is someone who doesnt own a Tv closer to God?

---

Captain good point. Has nothing to do with the law. yet is all about doing and knowing the difference between right and wrong. Which in turn is what the law is all about.

TV, Internet and the rest of the world of technology, it is all about having a good sound biblical mind which will lead us to have high standards. With what purpose do we use technology today in our lives? My kids were 5 and 7 when we first started to visit the church. My son never had a toy gun. Even before we started to visit the church. they watched TV all day if possible but never Beavis and Butt-Head. He played video games but never Mortal Combat.
I as their father, not the bible or God, made a decision for them as to what to how they engage technology. They didnt know better. It was up to me to know what was right for my children. How I acquire that knowledge, it was up to me. As you mentioned, the bible has no say on TV. There werent any at that time. Yet, the bible, God's Word, teaches us to be upstanding human beings. We pick and choose how to make the best out of and with technology.

 

[CaptainToad]

Captain good point. Has nothing to do with the law. yet is all about doing and knowing the difference between right and wrong. Which in turn is what the law is all about.

TV, Internet and the rest of the world of technology, it is all about having a good sound biblical mind which will lead us to have high standards. With what purpose do we use technology today in our lives? My kids were 5 and 7 when we first started to visit the church. My son never had a toy gun. Even before we started to visit the church. they watched TV all day if possible but never Beavis and Butt-Head. He played video games but never Mortal Combat.
I as their father, not the bible or God, made a decision for them as to what to how they engage technology. They didnt know better. It was up to me to know what was right for my children. How I acquire that knowledge, it was up to me. As you mentioned, the bible has no say on TV. There werent any at that time. Yet, the bible, God's Word, teaches us to be upstanding human beings. We pick and choose how to make the best out of and with technology.

Exactly!

Forgive me if I am nitpicking with this and some other minor examples of life. But thats life, it consists of numerous smaller things that create a bigger picture in the end. While it is more or less easy to put the commandment of not to kill into practice it is much more difficult to make decisions in regard to smaller, more mundane things of life.

In the end, there doesnt seem to be a right or wrong in many scenarios, just opinions. Some people may not have a problem with Mortal Combat while other may say its not what a christian should spend his time on. And thats the point.

Sometimes people just have to go through something and experience it in order to make a decision, if we tell somebody not to do something, it might a reverse effect. Sometimes people grow out of certain things, sometimes people never grow into certain things. Its like that wine/meat example of the bible - some things may cause people to fall while others remain standing. Thats why I believe there is a continuum for people to decide on certain things with no real right or wrong.

No real right or wrong, because when you think about it, you can certainly find arguments against each and every pastime, showing thats its not really a good thing for a christian to do and theres always things that a christian could do but doesnt find the time for it, etc. etc. etc.

Interesting topic btw!

 

[love2obey]

Exactly!

Forgive me if I am nitpicking with this and some other minor examples of life. But thats life, it consists of numerous smaller things that create a bigger picture in the end. While it is more or less easy to put the commandment of not to kill into practice it is much more difficult to make decisions in regard to smaller, more mundane things of life.

In the end, there doesnt seem to be a right or wrong in many scenarios, just opinions. Some people may not have a problem with Mortal Combat while other may say its not what a christian should spend his time on. And thats the point.

Sometimes people just have to go through something and experience it in order to make a decision, if we tell somebody not to do something, it might a reverse effect. Sometimes people grow out of certain things, sometimes people never grow into certain things. Its like that wine/meat example of the bible - some things may cause people to fall while others remain standing. Thats why I believe there is a continuum for people to decide on certain things with no real right or wrong.

No real right or wrong, because when you think about it, you can certainly find arguments against each and every pastime, showing that its not really a good thing for a christian to do and there is always things that a christian could do but doesnt find the time for it, etc. etc. etc.

Interesting topic btw!

Nothing to be forgiven about. This is how we need to address what the bible, God's Word, has to teach us. I as a parent looked at how I wanted to raise my children. The best that I could do for them. My father was not and still not a bible reader or Christian. yet he raised me with certain principal which I applied with my children. To him they were good sound and morally correct, and so to me. I wont be surprise that my children wont do the same with theirs. Dont get me wrong, I bought my son fighting video games and played them with him. My son today is not into them because at a certain time, when it was proper to do, I removed the game unit from our home.
He is 26 today, and when ever we have a chance to hang out and run across Street Fighter, we go at it just like when he was a child. There many things that shouldnt be done so we shouldnt ever do it. I have been blessed with that relationship with the Lord to know what and when. I remember when I first got to church. AS I mentioned before, a 5 and 7 years old. I kept them next to me at all times. it was all no, no. you stay there with me. One they the Lord spoke to me: "they will hate the building". I then allowed them to sit with their friends in church.
to my children to know that they were going to church on Saturday, it meant the world. they were going to see their friends. As they got older they began to understand the meaning of Sabbath. I never forced a relationship with the Lord to my children. I would argued academics but never religion with them. They develop their own relationship with the Lord on their time and my testimony as an example. For instance, when my daughter was asked to work on Sabbath, in a SDA university, she told her superior, "I dont work on Sabbath" and left the job.
With a good foundation, we can make the right decision when the time comes.