Knowing "Jesus" is there or "God"..

[socialchameleon]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']As an Atheist I find it extremely hard to understand how a religious person can "know" something without having proof of any kind?[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']When as a Christian you say "I know Jesus exists", how do you know? What has brought you to this understanding?[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Let me guess "Faith"?[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Surely "Knowing" and "Faith" are two different concepts?[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Knowing; being the understanding of something based on evidence? [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']and[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Faith; being the belief in something despite the lack of evidence?[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I'm sure I'm not the first to raise this question?[/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/FONT]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']I also find it highly strange that you restrict anyone other than a Christian to reply to these threads, why is that? Surely a forum is for voicing opinion regardless of your affiliation?[/FONT]

 

[Van]

Hi socialchameleon, first, you might try "editing" the extraneous "FONT" information out of your post. Second, I find it difficult to understand why folks play word games, using semantics to belittle the views of other. Since much of what we know, or think we know, arises from assumptions about reality, it seems silly to question how others could know something, without a response from logic that says how do you know it is silly?

In other words, epistemological arguments carry the seeds of their own destruction within them. To trust in what we think we know is to exercise faith.

How can I "know" something without evidence? Well it could be based on speculation and extrapolation. But in such cases, it would not be practical to place much certainty on that "knowledge." For example, I sat on that chair yesterday and it was not broken and it supported me, so when I sit down on it today, I "know" it will support me. So my speculation is nothing happened to the chair to change its capacity to support me, and my extrapolation is that what worked in the past will work in the future.

So when I trust in Jesus, I am really trusting in His name, which means I am trusting in what Jesus is known for, being the Messiah, the Christ, and being God with us, God in the flesh. And this trust in His name, in what the Bible says about Jesus is based on my trust in the trustworthiness of the Bible.

 

[salida]

No offense, but I have much more evidence than an athiest does.

If you objectively research the bible, you will find that because of its attributes it could only be written by God. Its the most accurate historically than any book or anything in the world. I'm a christian for spiritual reasons first and intellectually second. Since you are an athiest, I will discuss just intelligent design first. I have circumstantial evidence on my side on all these arguments- concerning intellect design and the credibility of the bible.

For example, darwinism claims that things improve within millions of years and claim mutations do this. The truth is they don't. Genes either copy themselves are make mistakes (mutations)- but a species never gets better. Also, that there are transition species. If there were, you would see them today. Even secular scientists claim they don't exist. And its the survival of the fittest - another farce - a lion gets what is convenient and it doesn't matter if a deer is strong or weak. I believe in microevolution and some macroevolution but not darwinism which is athiest/agnostic evolution.

A human body cell is at least 1000 times more complicated than your car - yet your car had a designer. Darwinism claims that something comes from nothing- this is absurd and impossible. A human body cell being 1000 times more complicated than your car just came from thin air - this isn't scientific but an athiest/agnostic philosophy that doesn't have much or any circumstantial evidence to support it.

Concerning biblical info- The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (overwhelming circumstantial evidence that would stand up in court concerning bible) and Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (a former athiest) and The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel (a former athiest).

Biblical Circumstantial Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

 

[ebia]

As an Atheist I find it extremely hard to understand how a religious person can "know" something without having proof of any kind?

How many things in life that you know (or think you know) have you actually proved? We don't (primarily) believe things because we can prove them, we believe them because either they make sense of our experiences or they come from a trusted source.

When as a Christian you say "I know Jesus exists", how do you know?

I know in the same way that I know I am called to be a teacher or the same way that I know I love my daughter.

What has brought you to this understanding?

My experience, my story.

Surely "Knowing" and "Faith" are two different concepts
Knowing; being the understanding of something based on evidence?

Um, no. Knowing is not really any different from believing except it has a stronger implication that the think known is actually true.

Faith; being the belief in something despite the lack of evidence?

Again, no. That's not the sense that Christians mean (or should mean) or what the New Testament means by faith. Faith is knowing and putting ones trust in the thing known.

I also find it highly strange that you restrict anyone other than a Christian to reply to these threads, why is that?

To stop it becoming a debate forum. This is an area to find out what Christians hold to be true and why, not to debate that. The (different) restrictions on Christian and non-Christian posters looks somewhat artificial and restrictive but it achieves its purpose.

 

[Digit]

Right. So, I don't think I can top the above three posters... as I agree totally.

I'll just leave now. >_<;

 

[freeport]

As an Atheist I find it extremely hard to understand how a religious person can "know" something without having proof of any kind?

I have a ton of proof.

You can claim I do not have proof, but that does not change the fact that I do.

Have you ever had proof of something and disbelieved? I am not talking about some fantasy or something without empirical evidence. I am talking about, say, having met someone famous or say you meet someone and have some claim to say which is true but they do not believe you.


It is frustrating because you have evidence - firsthand evidence - but they do not and find it hard to believe.


We believe and have firsthand evidence because the Spirit of God lives in our hearts.

Our Kingdom is in our hearts, it is invisible to outsiders. You hear words, see deeds, but you do not participate in the internal kingdom.


So you do not know. We can speak of this, but unless one has "been there", they do not know.

 

[DerSchweik]

As an Atheist I find it extremely hard to understand how a religious person can "know" something without having proof of any kind?
When as a Christian you say "I know Jesus exists", how do you know? What has brought you to this understanding?
Let me guess "Faith"?
Surely "Knowing" and "Faith" are two different concepts?
Knowing; being the understanding of something based on evidence? and Faith; being the belief in something despite the lack of evidence?
I'm sure I'm not the first to raise this question?

With respect, sc, as you've identified yourself as an "atheist" - one who "knows" God does not exist, I'm a little surprised at your question for the "faith" you claim regarding His non-existence is no different than the "faith" we claim for His existence, right?

I say that only to point out that the burden of "proof" you demand of Christians for God's existence is not something atheists themselves can provide for His non-existence.

In the same vein, perhaps the "faith" you claim for His non-existence (for it isn't "proof" - by your own definition) is no different than the "faith" we have that He does exist.

My faith comes from hearing and reading His word and comparing what the bible says to the world around me, and to my own person as well. I've yet to see any contradictions or incorrect statements [from the bible]. The "evidences" you seek, which you claim do not exist - and I say that with no rancor or criticism, I believe do exist - all around us, in the world in which we live and exist, and in the universe that surrounds us. They all speak to me of His existence and I am not in the least disturbed by not having seen Him physically or materially - I have not seen Him like that any more than I have seen wind or sound, but I know both exist because they give evidence of their existence. So does God - not just in the world around me, but in answer to prayer, in how He works on me, in me, and through me.

I realize that's not evidence you may accept, but from my perspective, neither can I accept the evidence atheists propose inasmuch as it runs completely counter to my own experience.

I also find it highly strange that you restrict anyone other than a Christian to reply to these threads, why is that? Surely a forum is for voicing opinion regardless of your affiliation?

Each forum on CF has a specific purpose - and the various guidelines for posting in each forum are there primarily to maintain focus on that purpose and not wander off topic - which can be confusing and frustrating.

Exploring Christianity is a forum specifically for the purpose of giving non-Christians a forum for asking questions they might have about Christians and/or Christianity. It is limited to Christian response for that reason and that reason alone. To allow other non-Christians to respond would not be in line with the set purpose of the forum. For example, your question was to Christians, and for Christians, and only Christians are truly able to answer your question. A non-Christian might be tempted to respond, but it would not be an answer, by definition, you are seeking, right?

That's all. There are other forums here where non-Christians can engage with other non-Christians and discuss topics together, with or without Christian involvement. This particular forum meets a very specific purpose and for that reason is limited in scope of involvement.

I pray and hope this helps....

 

[EazyMack]

To take your question at face value, I can't prove to you how I know Jesus is with me any more than I could prove to you that I had a headache. If you haven't experienced it yourself, what more can you go by than my word?

That being said, I would also have to point out that maintaining atheism requires more faith than being a Christian. The evidence of God as creator of the universe can't be disproven. The evidence of Christ's time on earth can't be disproven. The evidence of Christ's deity can't be disproven.

Let me spin it this way: if there is no God, atheism suggests that there will be no consequences for my faith at the time of my death. However, if there is, Christianity states that there will be tragic consequences for your faith at the time of your death.

That being said, so as to stamp out any debate over an "all-loving God," remember that people take themselves to hell, they are not sent there.

 

[EazyMack]

If you try Him, it will be proven to you.

 

[Supreme]

I think the first thing an atheist has to do when approaching Christianity (or indeed any religion) is to have an open mind. Some atheists, perhaps the more fundamental ones who claim to speak for science (Richard Dawkins), try to attack religion by using the same rules they have for science. But religion isn't logic, it isn't scientific and it's never pretended to be otherwise. And I should know. I'm taking A2 exams this year in Biology, Chemistry and History.

 

[EazyMack]

But that's not to say that science & the Bible are mutually exclusive, is it?

 

[childofGod31]

Faith is like those other things that we call a miracle. (like a miracle of birth). There are some things that happen which we cannot explain. But they do exist. Faith is like eyes that see the spiritual world. The spiritual world does exist, but those without faith cannot "see" it (aka: believe it).
We see God with the eyes of faith.

It's just is. I just believe. I am not sure exactly why, I am just convinced that God exists. To me, it's a hard reality, just as much as the ground that I am walking on. Some people even say that spiritual world is MORE of a reality than the physical world we live in. The spiritual world is around us, but our physical eyes cannot see it. (Although some people do have ability to see beings from the spiritual world).
Some people have psycic abilities. And some people had encounters. Those are all proofs of something existing other than this physical reality.

We are trained to require proof in our physical reality. But the spiritual world is a bit different. And things just happen out there. God even made the world by just speaking it. Wow. It's just different, it's by different rules. And faith is like a gateway to that spiritual world and is partly of that world and that's why it seems so illogical to the logical physical world.

 

[andreha]

As an Atheist I find it extremely hard to understand how a religious person can "know" something without having proof of any kind?

When as a Christian you say "I know Jesus exists", how do you know? What has brought you to this understanding?
Let me guess "Faith"?
Surely "Knowing" and "Faith" are two different concepts?
Knowing; being the understanding of something based on evidence?
and
Faith; being the belief in something despite the lack of evidence?
I'm sure I'm not the first to raise this question?
I also find it highly strange that you restrict anyone other than a Christian to reply to these threads, why is that? Surely a forum is for voicing opinion regardless of your affiliation?

Hey Socialchameleon.

Have a look at a childhood testimony posted here. I don't just believe it, but know it. He revealed Himself to me in all His glory, and filled me with the warmth of His awesome love. You will stand before Him one day. You will. PM me, if you want. I'll share a lifetime of testimonies with you. This thing called Christianty is very real.