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AVBunyan said:So, in 1611 God called together a diverse bunch and said, "Sit down and write!", and we now have the results of God's work in 1611 in the form of one final Englsih translation.
Of course I've read the introduction. They said the above because they were humble men. Now the modern translators may brag on their work but those men would never.The Thadman said:Have you ever read the introduction to the 1611 version? The translators, themselves, state that NO translation is perfect (especially their own), and the translation was done because MEN wanted a new translation, not God.Shlomo,
Don't worry, I know what those days are likeAVBunyan said:My door is still open for future discussion if you like but tonight I think I'll let the door shut so I can get some rest - the ole' brain is blowing gaskets!
Enjoyed the chat - may God richly bless.
AVBunyan said:Thadman - you miss my point. I believe in the soverignty of God. Regardless of men's motives God was working all things after the counsel of His own will. It is God that moves upon men's hearts to carry out His will - You are looking at the human element - I am looking at it from the standpoint of God directing the affairs of men. I don't know how plainer I can get. You might consider doing a brief study on the soverignty of God in the scriptures - it is a fascinatiing study.
Maybe your children can understand it just fine; but don't assume that's the case for everyone. I'm a nearly-straight-A student 3/4 of the way towards a degree in linguistics, and it's too much for me; not too much to understand, but too much to force myself to sit down and read. If the 1611 AV is the only one we're supposed to use, that's a lot of people being left out in the cold. (Not to mention the people who don't speak English as their first language--they should be able to get a full understanding without having to learn extra languages, just like farmer Jones, right?)AVBunyan said:Thad - I just don't believe God would hide the "nuggets" in ancient languages, (Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.) - this would mean that ole' farmer Jones on the back of his tractor out plowing the back forty couldn't sit down under a tree on his lunch break and get complete understanding from his 1611 AV becasue he doesn't know the ancient languages. Now, my friend, I don't know God like I should but I just don't think God would leave ole' farmer Jones out in the cold like that.
A man with a 5th grade education with a humble heart and the Holy Spirit approaching the KJV believing it is God's word will get more from the 1611 AV than any Greek or Hebrew scholar approaching the same book with an attitude that he can correct it.Arikereba said:If the 1611 AV is the only one we're supposed to use, that's a lot of people being left out in the cold.
AVBunyan said:Thad - I just don't believe God would hide the "nuggets" in ancient languages, (Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.) - this would mean that ole' farmer Jones on the back of his tractor out plowing the back forty couldn't sit down under a tree on his lunch break and get complete understanding from his 1611 AV becasue he doesn't know the ancient languages. Now, my friend, I don't know God like I should but I just don't think God would leave ole' farmer Jones out in the cold like that.
God put His word in the common language of the day where anybody can get it. I got 10 children and they were all raised on one book and never had any trouble understanding the book (average word is only 5 letters long) with the aid of the interpreter, the Holy Spirit.
Also, one other point to ponder. I dont' believe the average "Joe" came up all these "so-called" errors in the King James Bible on their own. I mean that while they were reading their bibles they came up with all these "errors"? They had to be "educated" out of a King James Bible. Some "smart guy" who had a problem with authority showed them the "so-called" errors. In the old days nobody sat around trying to find fault with the book that changed lives and whole cities. Today this obsession to find errors in the book God used for almost 400 years has been interesting to say the least. Much learning has thus made us mad. That's why I believe God has let all these translations come out today - he is giving the people what they want - multiple authorities so they can find the version to fit their own beliefs and show themselves for what they are - sinners that don't like authority so they can live like they want. Nobody likes to be "pinned down" - and if you have a final authority then you are "pinned down". Also, this is a way that God can separate the "chaff from the wheat " (my worthless opinion).
I believe the KJV pins me down - if I don't like a verse that hits my beliefs or my sin then I can't change it - I have to live with it. I have to change to line myself up with the book - not find a book that lines up with me.
Summary - I can't believe God would leave His word in ancient languages that the average person wouldn't probably use. God would put it "waiste-high" so all could get it and have no excuse for not getting it.
Amen!The most important thing is the application of the Word to live the lives we were instructed to live, regardless of where a comma might be situated.
AVBunyan said:Thad - at this time I can only comment on one thing you mentioned for time is getting away from me here on my break:
"Wait a minute. Your final authority is a book? What about God?"
God is my final authority - His word is found in a King James Bible - so when I read a King James Bible then I am reading what God is saying so His word in a King James Bible is my finaly authority - now don't be like others and say I worship a book - good, I didn't think you would say such a foolish thing.
AVBunyan said:Thad it appears that we are not making much headway with each other but Ill go a little further and then maybe it will be time to pull the anchor and move on. Ill answer your last post and seek to even answer the previous but I cant guarantee though I said earlier I would try. With long workdays and 10 kids it does get a bit hectic around here.
Thad said:
God's word is found everywhere depending on how carefully you listen.
This, I believe you are referring to verbal or extra revelation I reject that vehemently. I believe the gifts and gifted men were done away as soon as God put Israel on the back burner for the time being and that is another subject you may not wont to go into here at this time.
1) "If I were to receive a prophecy for you, and it references a translated Bible passage other than that of the KJV, would you believe me?"
No I wouldnt believe you if you prophesied and it was a KJV passage I believe prophecy is gone I believe God speaks through His word today thats why it is paramount to have His word today so you can know what He is saying. Peter says we have a more sure word of prophesy.
2) "If I were to receive a prophesy for you, and it references a Bible passage in another language, would you believe me?"
Ditto the above.
3)"Do you think it invalid if I say "God is also my final authority - God's word is found in the Greek of the Septuagint because it was translated by pious men who were led by Him?
Ive read all the info regarding the mythological Septuagint it was written around 300 A.D. not B.C. See the Christians Handbook of Manuscript Evidence Dr. P.S. Ruckman His sources and info are irrefutable on the famous Septuagint.
4) "Or how about "God is also my final authority - God's word is found in the English Inspired Version, because it was translated by people who did not know Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, but claimed they were led by the Spirit?"
5) "Or how about "God is also my final authority - His word is found in the Aramaic of the New Testament because it looks like it's the unadulterated original, written in the language of Jesus, himself"?
Not following your reasoning here sorry, my gears are slipping.
6) "Do you know that the KJV was never seen as "the final English authority" until after the Seventh-day Adventist missionary Benjamin G. Wilkinson (d.1968) published his book "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated?" It was a flop at the publishers until about twenty years after his death."
Couldnt care less about a SDA missionary in regards to the 1611 AV the witness of history and the fruits that book has produced is good enough for me. How about what Whitfield, Wesley, Moody, Surgeon, Paton, Watson, Owen, Bunyan, and others said who got results from preaching one book and Ill give you one guess of which one they preached and taught.
7) "What are your views on the English translations that came before the KJV?"
Simple if they came from the right line (from Antioch, not Egypt) then they were reliable and God certainly blessed them (Matthews, Tyndales, Coverdales Luthers, etc.). If they came from the wrong line (Egypt Alexandrian) toss them for God never used them.
8) "If the KJV is the best translation into the English language, how come there are 300 words that have been deemed as "obsolete" and many dictionaries now no longer list them."
Because our English language has been dumbed down so much that the best the average American can do today is the Sports page or TV Guide (exaggerating here but you get my point). The average American in the late 1700s could openly discuss the Declaration of Independence and the Article of Confederation and then the Constitution. Do you know what book they were raised on Ill give you one guess and you dont get another one! The fact the 300 obsolete words were left out is a testimony to our polluting of the English language.
The Thadman said:The KJV does have mistakes, this is certain. I have already given you some, but you have made up your mind. Pray over this, and you will see by God's Spirit that Judas' father was not a leper, that Jesus was not being rude to his mother, that Jesus was speaking of a rope, not a camel, and appreciate his poetry.
AVBunyan said:Now this issue will not get settle here for I have given up trying to use sound doctrine to talk someone out of an experience they had. When experience and doctrine conflict Ive have seen most always choose the experience they had over scripture for anybody can use scripture to prove just about anything it just depends on what version, translation, manuscript, prophecy, etc.
[...]
Many of this movement have elevated experience over the word of God and Ive given up trying to deal with it. Unless I discern someone is truly sincere in getting to the bottom of the issue I dont make an issue of it. The average saint today is not even grounded in the basics of justification so to talk to them about the gifts is unprofitable to them.
How could he have created "irrefutable evidence" on the GREEK LXX. Additionally, much of his "irrefutable evidence" on the Septuagint came from "advanced revelation." Last time I checked, that's prophesy, and last time I checked, you don't believe that prophesy is possible.
Im assuming you are referring to Dr. Ruckman. I dont know what you are referring to when you say advanced revelation regarding the LXX. I dont believe it has anything to do with prophesy these men base the misunderstanding of the LXX on research not prophesy.
AVBunyan said:Thad - this is all I can come up with for now or later.
...
That would be fine if you were living in Acts but since the kingdom offer to the Jews is not in affect for now then all your tests donât apply in the age of grace â God is no longer dealing with Israel at this time and the signs, prophecies, gifts, tongues, healing, etc. are only in affect when God is dealing with Israel as a nation. The Jews require a sign (I Cor. 1:22) â their nation is a history of needing signs for authentication staring with Moses and going through Acts but they have ceased. And I would not even attempt to talk you out of your experience.
Now this issue will not get settle here for I have given up trying to use sound doctrine to âtalkâ someone out of an experience they had. When experience and doctrine conflict Iâve have seen most always choose the experience they had over scripture for anybody can use scripture to âproveâ just about anything â it just depends on what version, translation, manuscript, prophecy, etc. If fact I wrote a post elsewhere called, âThe Characteristics of the Modern Gifter Todayâ but donât care to get into the subject of gifts here.
You had better make sure you are discerning right that is all I will say on the matter. I judge things by Paulâs epistles first and foremost.
This subject of gifts, etc. seems to enflame more than any other today. As mentioned above once a person has had an âexperienceâ then it is virtually impossible, except for the intervention of God, to get them to see otherwise. Many of this movement have elevated experience over the word of God and Iâve given up trying to deal with it. Unless I discern someone is truly sincere in getting to the bottom of the issue I donât make an issue of it. The average saint today is not even grounded in the basics of justification so to talk to them about the gifts is unprofitable to them.
Iâm assuming you are referring to Dr. Ruckman. I donât know what you are referring to when you say âadvanced revelationâ regarding the LXX. I donât believe it has anything to do with prophesy â these men base the misunderstanding of the LXX on research not prophesy.
This, my friend is where you have enflamed me. Iâm assuming you are taking a âshotâ at Dr. Ruckman and if not forgive me for the following - for if you donât need it them somebody else that is reading this might. I donât know what you know about Dr. Ruckman so if I misrepresent you here then I will publicly apologize. I can take any shots you throw at me personally (and thus far you have refrained and I appreciate it) but when you throw them at Dr. Ruckman I get bent out of shape. Dr. Ruckman does not claim to be a âprophetâ in any way. He would be the first to say he is a sinner saved by the grace of God and that he is infallible. First of all he is âDr.â Ruckman to us who respect his life and ministry â he earned several of those doctorâs degrees by more labour and study than most have done in a lifetime. From where I come from we donât refer to Christian men by their last name but rarely and this by mistake or convenience. Usually when people refer to âRuckmanâ it is in a negative light. It doesnât bother him for he has been in the battle for years but it bothers me. God used this man early after I got saved to introduce me to Godâs word and right division. I know the man, I know his personal life and his love and labor for the Lord â Iâve heard his personal testimony, Iâve been to a King James Bible conference when he was at the church I presently attend (for over 21 years), and heard the manâs heart on matters the average âRuckman basherâ hasnât. Regardless of what you have heard or think the man has done and sacrificed more than the average pastor today in seeking to train young men. Is he perfect? Of course not â who is! But a lot of people make his âattitudeâ the issue and ignore his research. Also, he has forgotten more Greek and Hebrew than most Bible students ever learned. The reason bible-rejecters have issue with him because he knows what they know and they know he knows what they know and it makes them nervous as a termite in a yoyo.
Moses was a murderer, David an adulterer, you couldnât trust Noah with a bottle and God used them all. You resorting to what others have lowered themselves to do â find fault with the âfounderâ and ignore the evidence. Regarding the KJV being a late movement you are sadly and grossly mistaken. There were other attempts of different versions prior to the 1800âs and people still stick with the KJV. The reason it is an issue today is because of the mass attacks on the KJV and the mass production of so many new perversions. I could care less about when a âmovementâ started â there have always been people before these apostate times that believed that book was Godâs perfect word.
They need to get a Bible from the right line of texts in their language or learn to read from a King James Bible or have somebody read or preach an English KJV to them and have an interpreter interpret for them. Or, take an English KJV and use that as a basis for translating Godâs word into their own language â that is what the missionaries did and God blessed it.
Maybe, then it appears to me that this supports the KJV even more because God is not interested in complicating things. People always say the KJV is too hard to read but I thought the Holy Spirit is the teacher anyway so what is the big deal?
Iâm certainly no authority on English. I believe the best English is the English of a King James Bible. Todayâs English is vastly dumbed down and watered down with slang and trash. I am not an English expert and donât claim to be. If I had only one book it would be a King James Bible and I could home school my kids using this for the basis of spelling, grammar, science, history, and logic, etc. Are you getting my point now?
Now, letâs wrap this discussion up. I believe we both have said all we have said on the Bible authority issue and it appears both of us remain âstuck in the mudâ.
This is what I believe and this is where I stand:
1. The 611 AV is Godâs final English translation â inspired, perfect, and without error.
2. The gifts, prophecies, etc. are done away with. ... Historically I find it hard to believe that the men God used from 1600 on missed having the gifts, etc. (John Owens, John Bunyan, Thomas Watson, John Flavel, Jonathan Edwards, Thomas Boston, John Rutherford, CH Spurgeon, Christopher Love, John Robinson, John Knox, John Paton, William Cary, JF Norris, DL Moody, Sam Jones, George Mueller, and many more). The men above preached from a King James Bible and none of them would fool with the gifts meant for Israel for one minute. ... You mean the Holy Spirit passed these men up and gave âthis blessing (gifts)â to this modern, apostate, fleshly, worldly, lazy group of âChristiansâ today (and I include myself in them also)? Those men listed above would look at us and question our salvation! Donât try to convince me we are more spiritual than those men. Donât try to convince God would save all this for us today.
Finally, I really do appreciate your comments and remarks for it shows that you take truth seriously and are willing to spend time and effort on it. I donât agree with your positions but it appears you are not lazy.
With that I pray Godâs blessing upon you life and the words of Avbunyan are finished on this subject. I can answer no more questions anymore for if I havenât moved you yet then I will not be able to so in any future posts on the subject. Iâve enjoyed the exchange for it has challenged me and caused me to dig deeper. Iâm sure I could have done a better job of explaining myself and have missed a few things here and there but attribute that to inexperience and lack of spiritual life.
I admit I cannot handle all your questions. Just donât have all the answers. I'm sure I could have said things differently but for now that's it.
Again, after all is said and done then some things you just have to take by faith. I, by faith, believe that the book I have in my hands is God's word.
May God bless
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