Killing the Devil inside of me, with the help of Descartes?

2PhiloVoid · Jun 7, 2019

ToddNotTodd said:
I know the difference between what I think a dream is as opposed to what I think being awake is. But if my entire life has been my brain (or something like a brain I wouldn't understand) manipulated by an evil god, then maybe there's no real "dreaming", just a different method of inputting false signals.

And you don't have to "buy it", you just have to realize that you can't know if it's true or not.

If this is the case, then don't you think we'd have to be Skeptical about everything and even deny all forms of truth and knowledge?

Perhaps a god exists and is allowing a devil like character to do these manipulations in order to see if you'd be convinced by what the devil calls "Christianity". If you pick it, you lose, because there's something inherent in the tenets of Christianity that this god despises.

Well..............................I'm not arguing for that possibility here in this OP, although I think that little diddy of a verse I quoted above for @Gaara earlier might imply something along those lines. It could even imply that God impels and/or allows some forms of atheism or skepticism to achieve some of His goals of judgment. But then, to balance this out, we'd have to continue in the Hermeneutical Circle in the process so we don't start making rash interpretations about that and ... everything else.

So you're stuck, unless you've developed a properly basic belief that this can't happen. But to me, that's like setting your clock ahead 10 minutes to try and trick yourself into always being on time.

I can't really say that we're stuck if we can still bring in Descartes, maybe Pascal, R.M. Hare and Hillary Putnam ...

2PhiloVoid · Jun 7, 2019

Silmarien said:
I find the evil God hypothetical a little bit silly, honestly, largely because the people who toss it around don't seem to grasp precisely what it would mean if God existed and were evil. In that scenario, reality becomes something reminiscent of a Lovecraftian nightmare--what we're dealing with is the ultimate existential horror, a malevolent reality that has created contigently existing creatures while wishing them nothing but ill, and I find it slightly troubling that people can look at that as a mere thought experiment, something totally detached from reality.

I think the best answer is the Pascalian one. You gain nothing by assuming that God might be evil, because in that scenario, you're damned one way or the other. On the other hand, if God is ultimately good and you're operating under the assumption that you live in a Lovecraftian horror film, you're at the very least going to end up with some serious problems in this life if not the next as well, so if you want to game theory the question, the answer is pretty obvious. Put your money on the good God, since it's the only way you're getting out intact.

I think that's ultimately the beginning of faith--it's not blind belief in a handful of propositions. It's simply trust that reality actually is good, not indifferent and not evil. That's much harder, especially if something like Azathoth is a live option for you.

Lol! I just saw a movie that smacked of this kind of thing ...

Great post! I love how you brought in another form of Hermeneutics by which to bring our attention to some inherent meaning that we may have missed (and y'know, being guys, we probably did!)

2PhiloVoid · Jun 7, 2019

gaara4158 said:
We can hope for that, yes, but then we have the problem of those who are deceived beyond reason, ie. the mother who drowns her children, the zealot who bombs a hospital, or the leader who declares war in God’s name. None of these acts are necessarily lacking in Biblical precedent (depending on your view of what counts as Christian doctrine) so how bad is too bad to be coming from the voice of God? If we’re to believe God won’t allow us to be deceived in this way, are we to believe these atrocities truly were inspired by him? These are the things that truly worry me about the widespread acceptance of Christian fundamentalism in America.

I'm sure that many of us are, like you, concerned about the ways in which a number of people can become overwrought with their expression of religious faith. However, I think we're going to have to clearly disambiguate something here in your assertion: while some people can be deluded (brainwashed), this needs to be separated out from those who are in fact mentally ill in the most difficult ways, such as those who have schizophrenia........as did, I believe, that gal who supposedly heard a voice telling her to drown her children.

zippy2006 · Jun 7, 2019

gaara4158 said:
We can hope for that, yes, but then we have the problem of those who are deceived beyond reason, ie. the mother who drowns her children, the zealot who bombs a hospital, or the leader who declares war in God’s name. None of these acts are necessarily lacking in Biblical precedent (depending on your view of what counts as Christian doctrine) so how bad is too bad to be coming from the voice of God? If we’re to believe God won’t allow us to be deceived in this way, are we to believe these atrocities truly were inspired by him? These are the things that truly worry me about the widespread acceptance of Christian fundamentalism in America.

Perhaps I should have been clearer in saying that my point was made in reference to the human condition, not to particular cases. "How can I have confidence that the human condition is not fundamentally corrupt and deceptive due to Satan's influence?" That is the question I was attempting to answer. Such confidence is not a guarantee that each individual will exercise his reason in a fashion which is in accord with such truths. In the case of extreme individuals it seems that the fault lies with the individual, not with God. This happens in all religions and philosophies, and it would be mistaken to say that religion or philosophy is at fault whenever an individual fails. Granted, the religion may be at fault, and the proportion of cases ought to bear out that fact.

Fundamentalism is difficult to address in toto... Sorry, can you give me a clearer idea of your thoughts and concerns regarding fundamentalism and deception?

Moral Orel · Jun 9, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Lol! I just saw a movie that smacked of this kind of thing ...

Well? What was the movie?

Whenever the topic of universal doubt comes up I always wonder why Neo and Morpheus never questioned if they ever truly left The Matrix. I mean, all of a sudden you find out that it's totally technologically possible to control every aspect of your perception of reality, including your memories, and no one ever said, "Hey, is this just another layer of The Matrix?". In The Thirteenth Floor a guy finds out he's in a matrix where he built a matrix, escapes and just says, "Okay, now I'm in the really real world, man". I'd lose my [blessanddonotcurse] like Leo waiting for that top to fall over in Inception. Movie references for the win! Spoilers for the lose... Sorry, if anyone hasn't seen The Thirteenth Floor.

gaara4158 · Jun 9, 2019

Nicholas Deka said:
Well? What was the movie?

Whenever the topic of universal doubt comes up I always wonder why Neo and Morpheus never questioned if they ever truly left The Matrix. I mean, all of a sudden you find out that it's totally technologically possible to control every aspect of your perception of reality, including your memories, and no one ever said, "Hey, is this just another layer of The Matrix?". In The Thirteenth Floor a guy finds out he's in a matrix where he built a matrix, escapes and just says, "Okay, now I'm in the really real world, man". I'd lose my [blessanddonotcurse] like Leo waiting for that top to fall over in Inception. Movie references for the win! Spoilers for the lose... Sorry, if anyone hasn't seen The Thirteenth Floor.

gaara4158 · Jun 9, 2019

zippy2006 said:
Perhaps I should have been clearer in saying that my point was made in reference to the human condition, not to particular cases. "How can I have confidence that the human condition is not fundamentally corrupt and deceptive due to Satan's influence?" That is the question I was attempting to answer. Such confidence is not a guarantee that each individual will exercise his reason in a fashion which is in accord with such truths. In the case of extreme individuals it seems that the fault lies with the individual, not with God. This happens in all religions and philosophies, and it would be mistaken to say that religion or philosophy is at fault whenever an individual fails. Granted, the religion may be at fault, and the proportion of cases ought to bear out that fact.

Fundamentalism is difficult to address in toto... Sorry, can you give me a clearer idea of your thoughts and concerns regarding fundamentalism and deception?

Ah, that’s fair enough then. My main concern with fundamentalism is, as you mentioned, a lack of intellectual humility that lends them a great deal of confidence in their convictions such that the whole world can tell them they’re wrong, and they’ll rejoice in how blessed they are to be the ones who know the Truth. Wherever deception may come in, fundamentalists are entirely powerless to detect it. This kind of confidence is enough to convince some of these people to support terrorism, and plenty more to believe that scientists are wrong about important things like climate change, vaccines, and civil rights.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 9, 2019

Nicholas Deka said:
Well? What was the movie?

It was just the new Godzilla movie. The director, Dougherty, stated that he did his best to bring into the storyline a kind of mythos that hasn't really been in Godzilla before, and he did the screenplay in a way that bids a small ode to Lovecraft and gives a small nod to some basic themes from ancient world religions.

Whenever the topic of universal doubt comes up I always wonder why Neo and Morpheus never questioned if they ever truly left The Matrix. I mean, all of a sudden you find out that it's totally technologically possible to control every aspect of your perception of reality, including your memories, and no one ever said, "Hey, is this just another layer of The Matrix?".

... it's because Morpheus obviously read some additional, countering philosophy so he could tell the difference.

In The Thirteenth Floor a guy finds out he's in a matrix where he built a matrix, escapes and just says, "Okay, now I'm in the really real world, man". I'd lose my [blessanddonotcurse] like Leo waiting for that top to fall over in Inception. Movie references for the win! Spoilers for the lose... Sorry, if anyone hasn't seen The Thirteenth Floor.

Yeah...........I never saw that one. Thanks for the spoiler!

2PhiloVoid · Jun 9, 2019

gaara4158 said:
Ah, that’s fair enough then. My main concern with fundamentalism is, as you mentioned, a lack of intellectual humility that lends them a great deal of confidence in their convictions such that the whole world can tell them they’re wrong, and they’ll rejoice in how blessed they are to be the ones who know the Truth. Wherever deception may come in, fundamentalists are entirely powerless to detect it. This kind of confidence is enough to convince some of these people to support terrorism, and plenty more to believe that scientists are wrong about important things like climate change, vaccines, and civil rights.

... it's for the mind-set you've just described that the biblical writers used the term, 'false-prophet.'

2PhiloVoid · Jun 9, 2019

Nicholas Deka said:
Well? What was the movie?

Whenever the topic of universal doubt comes up I always wonder why Neo and Morpheus never questioned if they ever truly left The Matrix. I mean, all of a sudden you find out that it's totally technologically possible to control every aspect of your perception of reality, including your memories, and no one ever said, "Hey, is this just another layer of The Matrix?". In The Thirteenth Floor a guy finds out he's in a matrix where he built a matrix, escapes and just says, "Okay, now I'm in the really real world, man". I'd lose my [blessanddonotcurse] like Leo waiting for that top to fall over in Inception. Movie references for the win! Spoilers for the lose... Sorry, if anyone hasn't seen The Thirteenth Floor.

Oh, and since we're talking about movies, don't forget to throw in Tron (old and new), one of my favorites!

Moral Orel · Jun 9, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Oh, and since we're talking about movies, don't forget to throw in Tron (old and new), one of my favorites!

I never saw the new Tron. And I haven't seen old Tron since I was a kid. Ahh... nostalgia...

There's an episode of Rick and Morty that comes to mind where you discover that Rick made an entire miniature universe, and created life on a planet just to give them the technology to generate electricity so that he could put them to work powering his car battery. One of the denizens of that universe created a miniature universe, and created life on a planet just to give them the technology to generate electricity so that he could put them to work generating power for his planet. And one of the denizens of that universe...

2PhiloVoid · Jun 9, 2019

Nicholas Deka said:
I never saw the new Tron. And I haven't seen old Tron since I was a kid. Ahh... nostalgia...

The newer Tron sequel is worth a watch and is actually somewhat more philosophical in its story structure than the first one from '82. I quite enjoyed it, of course, and I've been a Jeff Bridges fan ever since his King Kong performance back in '76. And that Olivia gal is in it, too (a plus!)

There's an episode of Rick and Morty that comes to mind where you discover that Rick made an entire miniature universe, and created life on a planet just to give them the technology to generate electricity so that he could put them to work powering his car battery. One of the denizens of that universe created a miniature universe, and created life on a planet just to give them the technology to generate electricity so that he could put them to work generating power for his planet. And one of the denizens of that universe...

Rick and Morty, ay? I've never heard of it. And since we're on this trope in this thread of mine, I'll just give a related shout out to the t.v. show, The Good Place, since it fits into this in some ways as well.

gaara4158 · Jun 9, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Rick and Morty, ay? I've never heard of it. And since we're on this trope in this thread of mine, I'll just give a related shout out to the t.v. show, The Good Place, since it fits into this in some ways as well.

Rick and Morty is great, it dabbles in high-concept sci-fi and cosmic horror with some toilet humor thrown in for good measure, all within a cartoon sitcom format that actually maintains continuity. Think Dr. Who meets Hitchhiker’s Guide meets Family Guy. I like to recommend the episode Something Ricked This Way Comes to those who don’t want to commit to watching the whole series but still want a taste.

And I absolutely love The Good Place, and all its discussion of moral philosophy actually reminded me of some of the discussions I’ve had here. Now if they’d just release season 3 on Netflix...

2PhiloVoid · Jun 9, 2019

gaara4158 said:
Rick and Morty is great, it dabbles in high-concept sci-fi and cosmic horror with some toilet humor thrown in for good measure, all within a cartoon sitcom format that actually maintains continuity. Think Dr. Who meets Hitchhiker’s Guide meets Family Guy. I like to recommend the episode needful things to those who don’t want to commit to watching the whole series but still want a taste.

Thanks for the tip, Gaara! I'll have to check it out sometime in the near future.

And I absolutely love The Good Place, and all its discussion of moral philosophy actually reminded me of some of the discussions I’ve had here. Now if they’d just release season 3 on Netflix...

We love The Good Place, too. It's one of our favorite shows right now, and we're waiting for season 4. But I'm not going to talk about it since I wouldn't want to spoil it for anyone ...

Moral Orel · Jun 9, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
We love The Good Place, too. It's one of our favorite shows right now, and we're waiting for season 4. But I'm not going to talk about it since I wouldn't want to spoil it for anyone ...

Yeah, sorry The Thirteenth Floor was good, but after seeing The Matrix, there isn't much to it. It doesn't have any of the fancy action, and everyone's already talked about the whole metaphysical concept of being in a matrix because of, well, The Matrix. Both of those movies came out at around the same time, and The Thirteenth Floor was just too overshadowed by The Matrix. It did add the complexity of AI becoming conscious and all, but the AI was too human to begin with, so it didn't feel all that compelling like, well, the movie AI.

Moral Orel · Jun 9, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
... it's because Morpheus obviously read some additional, countering philosophy so he could tell the difference.

I'm assuming that's sarcasm thanks to the winky face, yes? In all honesty though, doesn't Morpheus have good reason to suspect that he's still in a Matrix? Heck, even The Architect has good reason to suspect that he is in a Matrix.

2PhiloVoid · Jun 9, 2019

Nicholas Deka said:
Yeah, sorry The Thirteenth Floor was good, but after seeing The Matrix, there isn't much to it. It doesn't have any of the fancy action, and everyone's already talked about the whole metaphysical concept of being in a matrix because of, well, The Matrix. Both of those movies came out at around the same time, and The Thirteenth Floor was just too overshadowed by The Matrix. It did add the complexity of AI becoming conscious and all, but the AI was too human to begin with, so it didn't feel all that compelling like, well, the movie AI.

Good to know! Although, even with your applicable film criticism in tow, I might still get around one of these days to watching it........just because it's there!

2PhiloVoid · Jun 9, 2019

Nicholas Deka said:
I'm assuming that's sarcasm thanks to the winky face, yes? In all honesty though, doesn't Morpheus have good reason to suspect that he's still in a Matrix? Heck, even The Architect has good reason to suspect that he is in a Matrix.

No, I don't think Morpheus has a good reason to think he's still in the Matrix, although the Architect may have a good reason to do so, even if it's not the actual reason implied by him in the movie. Consider this evaluation of mine to be a kind of 'worm-hole' outcome through my application of Philosophical Hermeneutics. Not to be a wise-acre, but I'll give you a moment of pause to think over why I evaluate it in this way. I know you can figure it out ...

ToddNotTodd · Jun 9, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
If this is the case, then don't you think we'd have to be Skeptical about everything and even deny all forms of truth and knowledge.

Ultimately yes.

Is that a problem?

2PhiloVoid · Jun 9, 2019

ToddNotTodd said:
Ultimately yes.

Is that a problem?

If there's no truth to any of this in any way, then does it ultimately matter if I bother to respond with a "yes" to your question?

Killing the Devil inside of me, with the help of Descartes?

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