Killing the Devil inside of me, with the help of Descartes?

[2PhiloVoid]

Someone said not too long ago that "these are the times that try men's souls," or something to that effect. I suppose he was right in some capacity because, let's face it, we all seem to be languishing in a world gone awry, and even if someone doesn't presently adhere to some form of Metaphysics and/or Religion, surely we can all agree that we're immoral in the way we not only treat each other but also in how we abuse the natural ecology of our shared planet.

On the Christian side of things, the tendency (rather the strong tendency) among the faithful is to think that there is a Devil behind much of the evils in the world that we have to contend with, not the least of which is his claimed and vaunted power for mass deception.

On the Skeptical and Atheistic side of things, there seems to be the idea that if there is a Devil, then we might not be able to be 'sure' that the Bible itself is not a deception, that what we think is good isn't really evil, and vice versa. If this is true then we're in for a doubly deep dose of deception … not only corporately, but also from within our individual perceptions of mind.

So, how do I Kill the Devil Inside of Me and begin to untangle this epistemological, metaphysical, and axiological mess?

Kill The Devil, by The Letter Black [...sounds a little like Rhianna on steroids! ]


Any suggestions? Anyone, anyone?

Mathematician and Philosopher, Rene Descartes had one. And his suggestion, or rather his piece of logical deduction, was that no such skeptical view of the Devil [or 'Evil Demon God'] could really be entertained for very long and remain cogent …

[Note to the concerned: Don't worry! I'm not going Cartesian; I'm still Pascalian! ]

 

[RichardY]

@2PhiloVoid

When praying, how does a person know God is telling them to do something as opposed to the Devil?

Pray sincerely for the eternal wellbeing and fulfillment of God, aka Ultimate Reality. If you’re capable of doing this correctly, it will void the antithesis of your prayer, thus “exiling the devil”. If you are not, then you obviously need to develop this capacity, which may require long effort. Fail to make this effort, and I’m afraid you’re sunk. - Christopher Langan.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@2PhiloVoid

When praying, how does a person know God is telling them to do something as opposed to the Devil?

Pray sincerely for the eternal wellbeing and fulfillment of God, aka Ultimate Reality. If you’re capable of doing this correctly, it will void the antithesis of your prayer, thus “exiling the devil”. If you are not, then you obviously need to develop this capacity, which may require long effort. Fail to make this effort, and I’m afraid you’re sunk. - Christopher Langan.

That's an interesting suggestion from a guy with a 195 I.Q. ...

So, what might the Skeptic or the Atheist say in reply to Langan's 'smart' suggestion? (Just a question from a guy with a 115 I.Q., or thereabouts. )

 

[RichardY]

@2PhiloVoid I wouldn't of thought anything substantial. An atheist does not believe in Evil. A sceptic does not commit.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Someone said not too long ago that "these are the times that try men's souls," or something to that effect. I suppose he was right in some capacity because, let's face it, we all seem to be languishing in a world gone awry, and even if someone doesn't presently adhere to some form of Metaphysics and/or Religion, surely we can all agree that we're immoral in the way we not only treat each other but also in how we abuse the natural ecology of our shared planet.

On the Christian side of things, the tendency (rather the strong tendency) among the faithful is to think that there is a Devil behind much of the evils in the world that we have to contend with, not the least of which is his claimed and vaunted power for mass deception.

On the Skeptical and Atheistic side of things, there seems to be the idea that if there is a Devil, then we might not be able to be 'sure' that the Bible itself is not a deception, that what we think is good isn't really evil, and vice versa. If this is true then we're in for a doubly deep dose of deception … not only corporately, but also from within our individual perceptions of mind.

So, how do I Kill the Devil Inside of Me and begin to untangle this epistemological, metaphysical, and axiological mess?

Kill The Devil, by The Letter Black [...sounds a little like Rhianna on steroids! ]


Any suggestions? Anyone, anyone?

Mathematician and Philosopher, Rene Descartes had one. And his suggestion, or rather his piece of logical deduction, was that no such skeptical view of the Devil could really be entertained for very long and remain cogent …

I don't know what my IQ is.
I also don't know what you're really asking.
Must have a low IQ, I guess.
A question takes one sentence.
Not 4 paragraphs....

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@2PhiloVoid I wouldn't of thought anything substantial. An atheist does not believe in Evil. A sceptic does not commit.

I don't want to speak for atheists, but I could have sworn I've seen a few who say they don't believe in God...for the very reason that there is evidence of evil in the world, really bad, bad evil. As for the skeptics, some of them have committed to refraining from affirming God for various reasons. Lately, some of them seem to think the bible could be an Inverse Production.

So, we have a pretzel to contend with, don't we? Or is Langan's non-Christian prayer just going to wash the devil away?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't know what my IQ is.
I also don't know what you're really asking.
Must have a low IQ, I guess.
A question takes one sentence.
Not 4 paragraphs....

Well, sister GodsGrace101, this is Christian Apologetics, the place for convoluted and lengthy inquiries and explanations ...

I'm not concerned about I.Q., really. In fact, that was just a passing imputation into the discussion by our fellow interlocutor, @RichardY, above, so you can ignore that.

What I'd like to know is how you would address the portion in my OP that pertains to the argument that some Atheists and Skeptics have been using lately? In other words: how do you know you're not in a universe controlled by a Supremely powerful evil-demon, or just a brain-in-a-vat being controlled by an evil scientist? How do you know the bible isn't just a philosophical illusion of truth?

 

[RichardY]

@2PhiloVoid A lion killing a Zebra is not Evil. It's just nature.

It is wrong to judge a theist as a non-Christian. Even the apostle Paul said he met a man in Christ on his way to Rome. You do not know the man well, neither do I, but from Youtube I can see he goes to Church.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Well, sister GodsGrace101, this is Christian Apologetics, the place for convoluted and lengthy inquiries and explanations ...

I'm not concerned about I.Q., really. In fact, that was just a passing imputation into the discussion by our fellow interlocutor, @RichardY, above, so you can ignore that.

What I'd like to know is how you would address the portion in my OP that pertains to the argument that some Atheists and Skeptics have been using lately? In other words: how do you know you're not in a universe controlled by a Supremely powerful evil-demon, or just a brain-in-a-vat being controlled by an evil scientist? How do you know the bible isn't just a philosophical illusion of truth?

I didn't know Apologetics were supposed to be convoluted. But I'll do my best from now on!

So we're talking the Matrix here.
OK.
Well, we really cannot know, now can we?
We could be someone's dream...
Or a thought...
Or a video game...
or a brain in a vat and this is all an illusion.

However, I CAN know we're NOT in a universe controlled a powerful and evil demon. How?
Because most days when I get up...I'm feeling good.

If the evil demon controlled the world, most days I'd be feeling badly.

I have considered the possibility of duality: A good God and an evil God. I'm told this cannot be because, in that case, God would not be almighty and, for some reason, He MUST be almighty.

Well, maybe God could be almighty and the evil god could be a lesser god?

We have no explanation for evil...this could be one.

As the the bible being an illusion...
Very few Sci-Fi stories have included God.
Mine Enemy included God.
I'll need to think about this...
WHY would we need a God in a matrix?
Interesting question.
I'll try to come up with a convoluted answer...
LOL

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@2PhiloVoid A lion killing a Zebra is not Evil. It's just nature.

Within the context of the Theory of Evolution, you'd be right if we say that a lion killing a zebra isn't a 'moral evil.' Yet, it can be considered an instance of waste and pain if there's supposed to be an All-Good, All-Powerful God; besides, we'd have to begin to wonder what all of that talk in the Bible about "the Lion lying down with the Lamb ... " is. Why is that needed?

It is wrong to judge a theist as a non-Christian. Even the apostle Paul said he met a man in Christ on his way to Rome. You do not know the man well, neither do I, but from Youtube I can see he goes to Church.

Sure, to some extent I agree. I shouldn't judge the non-Christian too exactingly; that's for God to do. However, biblically speaking, your inherent argument doesn't apply IF Langan knows the Christian message and specifically rejects it only to replace it with his own theory. Sorry, mate!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I didn't know Apologetics were supposed to be convoluted. But I'll do my best from now on!

So we're talking the Matrix here.

Well, could be. That's just one permutation of this kind of skeptical argumentation that we Christians have to contend with, among other things.

OK.
Well, we really cannot know, now can we?
We could be someone's dream...
Or a thought...
Or a video game...
or a brain in a vat and this is all an illusion.

However, I CAN know we're NOT in a universe controlled a powerful and evil demon. How?
Because most days when I get up...I'm feeling good.

If the evil demon controlled the world, most days I'd be feeling badly.

Are you sure? I mean, we both know that the Devil deals in deception, and distortions of pleasure is one of his calling cards. So, I'm not sure that feeling either good or bad is, necessarily, a sign of being blessed. Remember Job?

I have considered the possibility of duality: A good God and an evil God. I'm told this cannot be because, in that case, God would not be almighty and, for some reason, He MUST be almighty.

Well, maybe God could be almighty and the evil god could be a lesser god?

It could be, but don't let me stop you from continuing your thoughts here on this ...

We have no explanation for evil...this could be one.

Actually, a number of philosophers and theologians, of various religions, have produced attempted explanations. But, that's alright. Keep thinking on it since it doesn't mean they were all correct.

As the the bible being an illusion...
Very few Sci-Fi stories have included God.
Mine Enemy included God.
I'll need to think about this...
WHY would we need a God in a matrix?
Interesting question.
I'll try to come up with a convoluted answer...
LOL

Sounds good! Share more when you're ready.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Within the context of the Theory of Evolution, you'd be right if we say that a lion killing a zebra isn't a 'moral evil.' Yet, it can be considered an instance of waste and pain if there's supposed to be an All-Good, All-Powerful God; besides, we'd have to begin to wonder what all of that talk in the Bible about "the Lion lying down with the Lamb ... " is. Why is that needed?

Sure, to some extent I agree. I shouldn't judge the non-Christian too exactingly; that's for God to do. However, biblically speaking, your inherent argument doesn't apply IF Langan knows the Christian message and specifically rejects it only to replace it with his own theory. Sorry, mate!

Agreed on your first paragraph.
We cannot attribute evil to nature.
There's an inherent evil in nature and is has to come from somewhere...satan is the right place.
IF someday the lion will lie with the lamb....and this is the exact opposite of what we have now since we will be living in al ALL GOOD world,,,then surely the lion eating the lamb now is an evil.

I don't know who Langan is and will find out....
But if he's replacing anything with his own ideas, as would be a normal thing to do...then, yes, please leave me my bible which is by God in some way and keep me away from man-made ideas.

 

[RichardY]

Within the context of the Theory of Evolution, you'd be right if we say that a lion killing a zebra isn't a 'moral evil.' Yet, it can be considered an instance of waste and pain if there's supposed to be an All-Good, All-Powerful God; besides, we'd have to begin to wonder what all of that talk in the Bible about "the Lion lying down with the Lamb ... " is. Why is that needed?

In Atheism there is no Objective or Transcendent Evil. If they go with Subjective, they need to explain how it is not arbitrary without God.

Sure, to some extent I agree. I shouldn't judge the non-Christian too exactingly; that's for God to do. However, biblically speaking, your inherent argument doesn't apply IF Langan knows the Christian message and specifically rejects it only to replace it with his own theory. Sorry, mate!

Again how do you know? Plenty of people say they are Christian. Only a tiny number take the sermon on the mount literally.

So what is the Christian theory, since you are implying you know? If you say salvation through Jesus Christ. Who are you to say, he doesn't follow his example the best he can.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In Atheism there is no Objective or Transcendent Evil. If they go with Subjective, they need to explain how it is not arbitrary without God.

...mmmmm, the essence of that view on 'evil' among atheists will depend on the kind of atheist that you speak to, because there is more than one kind of atheism, epistemologically and metaphysically speaking.

Moreover, if they go Subjective, they usually will explain their point of view and how they think it is cogent without God. Even as a Christian, I take a more Subjective route, but then the use of that word becomes laced with a different denotation and accompanying connotations since I'm more in the Critical Realist/ Existentialist camp ...

Again how do you know? Plenty of people say they are Christian. Only a tiny number take the sermon on the mount literally.

How do I know? Well, first of all, this tangent takes us a bit outside of the focal point of the OP, but in brief, I'll just say that I think it's hermeneutically inconsistent to insist on imputing salvation to non-christians by lifting a small motif from Paul the Apostle and then ignore the numerous connecting contexts of his overall theology which surely impinge upon a Universal Free-Ticket theory of salvation.

So what is the Christian theory, since you are implying you know? If you say salvation through Jesus Christ. Who are you to say, he doesn't follow his example the best he can.

It's not my intent to talk about Universalism here in this thread ----- unless you can somehow tie it into the possibility that we, even as Christians traditionally construed, somehow can't rely on the bible because it could be [allegedly] a mere counter-subterfuge of Satan being wielded by Satan himself ...

 

[RichardY]

@2PhiloVoid
Cosmological/Cognitive. God pervades all reality, to not be in accordant with God is to lose being.

Christopher Langan does not believe in Universal Salvation, neither do I. Believes in a Hell, where beings not conducive to the nature of God are eliminated.

About a framework through which religion can be interpreted (CTMU). Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic, are Theologically different. To have people burn in hell because they have not read, or heard the Bible cover to cover, and are sanctified by earthly authorities. Does not allow for intelligence.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@2PhiloVoid
Cosmological/Cognitive. God pervades all reality, to not be in accordant with God is to lose being.

Christopher Langan does not believe in Universal Salvation, neither do I. Believes in a Hell, where beings not conducive to the nature of God are eliminated.

About a framework through which religion can be interpreted (CTMU). Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic, are Theologically different.

They're not all that theologically different; besides, you still have to account for the historical developments of thought that have not only taken place between them, but also the developments within them, emerging from their common roots many centuries earlier. On that note, I'm going to stop with this tangent because it isn't germane to my OP focus.

To have people burn in hell because they have not read, or heard the Bible cover to cover, and are sanctified by earthly authorities. Does not allow for intelligence.

Ok. Even though somewhere we might find some common ground.......just stop with this and argue it somewhere else, please. Thanks for your input, though!

 

[gaara4158]

I've been prodding someone with an argument along these lines, but not for the purpose of throwing the whole Bible into question as a possible work of the Devil to deceive mankind. No, I think it's a much more relevant concern to raise if you find that the moral compass you're following leads you in a direction that the Devil, to your understanding, might be OK with. But as an argument on its own, you might as well ask if we're living in a computer simulation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I've been prodding someone with an argument along these lines, but not for the purpose of throwing the whole Bible into question as a possible work of the Devil to deceive mankind. No, I think it's a much more relevant concern to raise if you find that the moral compass you're following leads you in a direction that the Devil, to your understanding, might be OK with.

That's an interesting and perhaps relevant direction, gaara, but you may need to be more specific as to what you're actually citing as being a "Positive Possibility Relation X" between Christian moral compasses and the ultimate goals of the Devil.

But as an argument on its own, you might as well ask if we're living in a computer simulation.

Perhaps, but why are there some atheists using this line lately?

 

[gaara4158]

That's an interesting and perhaps relevant direction, gaara, but you may need to be more specific as to what you're actually citing as being a "Positive Possibility Relation X" between Christian moral compasses and the ultimate goals of the Devil.

It was suggested elsewhere that God is not interested in saving everyone, but rather a select few of a certain disposition. It was then suggested that by making arguments for God's existence that people not of that disposition were sure to reject, one was actually doing God's work by pushing the "wrong" people away from Christianity. But this would seem to be in line with the Devil's goals, assuming that he, too, wants to dissuade people from Christianity. It's also directly in conflict with the intent of Pascal's wager, which speaks directly to people who are so made that they cannot be persuaded of God's existence, offering them a way that they might still be saved.

If you truly believe there's a God and a Devil battling for souls, it should be a very real concern to you that the Devil might be tricking you into doing his work when you find that God's directives align with the Devil's.

Perhaps, but why are there some atheists using this line lately?

The simulation theory line? I usually see it in response to cosmological arguments which attempt to jump from "the universe had a beginning" directly to "that beginning must be God." Simulation theory is as good a candidate explanation as any for the beginning of the universe.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It was suggested elsewhere that God is not interested in saving everyone, but rather a select few of a certain disposition. It was then suggested that by making arguments for God's existence that people not of that disposition were sure to reject, one was actually doing God's work by pushing the "wrong" people away from Christianity. But this would seem to be in line with the Devil's goals, assuming that he, too, wants to dissuade people from Christianity. It's also directly in conflict with the intent of Pascal's wager, which speaks directly to people who are so made that they cannot be persuaded of God's existence, offering them a way that they might still be saved.

Yep. I think I can agree with the general idea of what you're saying here. It's not like it hasn't happened before among some of the Jewish people, here and there (as an example).

As for Pascal, I'm sure there are a few things he's said that more Calvinisticly leaning Christians would tend to disregard. But, let's not get too jumpy with Pascal. He too thought there were eternal risks, especially for the atheists/skeptics of his own time.

If truly believe there's a God and a Devil battling for souls, it should be a very real concern to you that the Devil might be tricking you into doing his work when you find that God's directives align with the Devil's.

It could be ... but, it might also be the converse of this, as seems to be be alluded to in the following brief portion from the book of Revelation:

Revelation 17:15-17 (NASB)
15 And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.
​

Regardless, we can just pretend for the moment, for argument's sake, that the Devil might be tricking me into doing his work rather than God's work. In which case, I'd have to do something hermeneutically drastic ... like asking you to explain how you came by your own definition and understanding about the Devil apart from the Bible?

By the way, here's a bonus--it's what I'd like to believe I'd tell the Devil to his face, if I could :