Kicked Out of Church

[allamedo]

I am presently living with my fiance, we have been together for 3 years. We are not married yet because her ex-husband who left her 6 years ago for another woman with whom he lives with and has 2 children with refuses to sign the divorce papers and moves every time we find him. We are on a fixed income and cannot afford an attorney. We have both made vows to each other before God, and will be married ASAP. We moved to a small rural community in eastern Oregon a year ago, we are both Christians and have been for the better part of our lives. We realize that the way we are living is not acceptable to God, but as I said we have both prayed and made our peace with Him and believe that He will help us solve this problem. As a matter of fact we heard from her ex just about 2 weeks ago, and he is entering the military and wants a divorce before he does, so his girlfriend and 2 kids can be his beneficiaries. We were honest with the Pastor of our church about our situation on the first day that we attended church, he explained to us what God's word said and we agreed with him, but told him that there was nothing at the time that we could do. He showed up the other day, and reiterated the Scriptures about us living out of wedlock, and proceeded to call us fornicators, adulterers, and said that we were a black eye to God every time we walked through the door of the church. After this he told us that we were no longer welcome at the church.

This is the first time I've ever been thrown out of a church. We have never disrupted the service or caused any problems or tried to justify to anyone the way we live. We usually sit in the back, listen to the sermon, and leave with very little interaction with others.

I don't think that what was done to us was right, nor Biblical. What do you think? All opinions will be greatly appreciated.

 

[rwl]

I think his actions were a blessing to you. No you can go look for an actuall church.

 

[AngelAmidala]

Moved from the Suggestions & Help forum to Christian Advice.

 

[allieisme]

WOW..that would be rough, having the pastor of a church telling you, you werent welcome..In my opinion, that was God's way of saying, you are not in the right church. You guys don't give up on finding a church, it is out of God's will to be living together and not be married, but you already know that, you dont need the pastor of your new church telling you that..I have faith that you will go to the right church, the church that God wants you in, and He will start moving in your lives deeply..

 

[JVD]

Quite the dilemna. Why is it that you decided to live together when you knew you coudn't get married? I can almost understand it but not quite.

Also, does she have any children from her marriage to her ex?

Either way, sounds like the pastor didn't handle the situation with much love. What do you think Jesus would have said?

 

[Sketcher]

Well did he spell out what God didn't find acceptable? Did you underestand it? If so, and you didn't listen the first time, he probably felt like he had no choice. Kicking someone out of the church should be used, but only as a last resort. Divorce and remarraige is sinful. The right way to tell you these things and how many chances one gets before getting booted is not something I am very good at, so I cannot judge him.

 

[sowellfan]

Well, 1 Corinthians 5 (read the whole chapter) pretty much nails it. It essentially talks about how a Christian fellowship should not associate with someone who calls themselves a Christian, but is living an immoral life. It's really a tough scripture, as far as requiring Christians to essentially turn their backs on their 'brothers', but I can't really argue with the Bible. The point it makes about 'a little yeast leavens the whole loaf' is a good one.

I haven't enforced it in my life...I've had lots of Christian friends who engaged in sex in dating relationships and such, and I still associated with them. At my church, I think that the pastor is fairly strict about people in leadership or ministry positions, or is on the platform for pretty much anything. Once they've straightened things out, though, he's fine with them, from what I am aware of.

It's a tough situation that you are in, so I'm not sure what to tell you. Maybe if you'd gone to a pastor and explained that you wanted to get married (God-wise, not necessarily legal-wise), they might've been able to do something for you, and then you would be all right until you could get married in the eyes of the law. I'm not sure if many pastors would go for that, though...

Maybe you could ask the pastor to help you find a male roommate (or a place to board) so that you could avoid living in sin until she can get a divorce.

 

[JillLars]

Luckily for us, God judges our hearts and our intentions, he knows our circumstances, and he knows the struggles we have.

Every situation is not the same, God knows that.

There are people out there, living together, having sex, who have no committment to one another, and have no intention of ever getting married.

Your situation, however, is different, and God knows that, even if your pastor doesn't.

 

[J.A.I]

While I agree that the relationship is not pleasing in God's eyes, he still should not have kicked you out. All people should be welcome in a church, as a church is not for saints alone. It is for sinners. It's a hospital.

Pray about it, and try to fix the relationship. In essence, you're dating a married woman. Regardless of the seperation, she is still married to another man, and that is adultery. I know it sounds harsh, but it's the truth. And shacking isn't of God either, so there are a lot of things here to look at.

Have you guys thought about seperating, waiting til she gets the divorce, getting married, and THEN moving in together ? That would be the right way to go about things. And if it is God's Will for you 2 to be together, you will be together. Do things on God's terms, and you will always be victorious.

 

[LynneClomina]

wow. he sure wasn't loving, was he? it's really disheartening to hear of a pastor who cannot be loving while they are correcting....

but to be honest, i think you need to prayerfully read what God said in 1 Corinthians 5.

you KNOW what is right and wrong, from the sounds of it... and you need to realize that God is never going to condone wrong things. two wrongs dont make a right. the means do not justify the ends. etc. God never says, "do not commit adultery except in the following circumstances".... it's plain and simple, "do not commit adultery". and it's the same with every sin mentioned in the bible.

but don't be disheartened. i dont know of a single person alive who hasnt been in a quandry about stuff like this. everyone has struggled with their consciences and rationalizing things in some way or another, nothings new under the sun.... please hear no judgement in what i say. it is a simple plea for you to return to purity in the Lord and have fellowship with His people once again. in good conscience, i have to tell you the truth. love me or hate me for it, it's up to you. but please, return to God and He will return to you.....

great blessings upon you in the following days....

 

[Caelum]

First of all, like someone said earlier, consider it a blessing. Now you will no longer have to waste your time with a church like that. Seems to me the pastor assumed the position of God and judged both of you at his own will, he has no authority to do such... Not one single person can live according to Scripture, it's not possible, that's why Jesus reigns to forgive...don't live in guilt, you two are in love, you devote eachother to God as a single unity...correct me if im wrong, but the Bible requires you marry eachother with God as your witness correct? Not the State of Missouri(place your state name here) as your witness... Carry on, marry *legally* as soon as possible, and until then, find a decent church, leave the guilt with the pastor

 

[Under_His_Shadow]

we are both Christians and have been for the better part of our lives. We realize that the way we are living is not acceptable to God, but as I said we have both prayed and made our peace with Him and believe that He will help us solve this problem.

I can empathize with the frustrating circumstances of your situation, but from what you've said, you seem to both realize that you are living in willful sin and disobedience to God's will, so have doubts that whatever "peace" you've made regarding your decision to continue this arrangement is "with God".

As believers, we do have peace with God, regarding our postion "in Christ", concerning eternal damnation for our sins, etc. (Rom.5:1), but His Holy Spirit is also always faithful to convict us about ongoing sin and disobedience in our daily lives (Jn.16:6), and until we repent of that, we will never have the peace of God in our hearts (Col.3:15). Our natural hearts being what they are (totally deceitful; Jer.17:9) it's easy to deceive ourselves that because of the complexity or difficulty of our particular situation, God understands and so will sort of let us slide by for now. He does understand, but loves us too much to "wink" at our disobedience to His known will, because he knows too well the consequences of sin for us and others in our lives.

He will help you with your problem, but it will have to be on His (scriptural) terms for it to be resolved with the least heartache, frustration, and (spiritual, emotional, and mental) destruction to result for all involved in the long run!

We were honest with the Pastor of our church about our situation on the first day that we attended church, he explained to us what God's word said and we agreed with him, but told him that there was nothing at the time that we could do. He showed up the other day, and reiterated the Scriptures about us living out of wedlock, and proceeded to call us fornicators, adulterers, and said that we were a black eye to God every time we walked through the door of the church. After this he told us that we were no longer welcome at the church.
I don't think that what was done to us was right, nor Biblical. What do you think? All opinions will be greatly appreciated.

Although we're only hearing your side of the encounter of course, judging from your words, it doesn't sound like your pastor used much tact, or spoke in love, and probably should have offered you more specific personal spiritual and practical help, but generally speaking, he probably did have Biblical grounds for his actions (see 1 Cor. 5:1-6), especially if, as it sounds, he had already spoken with you about this a couple of times before, and felt you were unwilling to repent and/or seek and submit to pastoral counsel in the matter.

 

[rogsr]

Hello,
What is pleasing to God's eyes is love. If you two people love each other and grow in your relationships with Christ through that love then you are married. End of story. Church rituals are nice and pretty but the real action takes place in the souls of the participants. God doesn't have rituals He has you two people and your love for each other and for Him. Real life comes with lots and lots of special circumstances and we all need to learn from this couples story so we don't become self-righteous like that little church pastor in oregan. I wish you two the best of luck, and may God be with you always.

And by the way what right did that little pastor have in judging you? Like he's the Lord Jesus or something. Many Christians fall into self-righteousness, you see it all the time. We all need to remember the slimy scuz pool Jesus pulled us out of and continues to pull us out of before we go judging anyone..for anything. If a man or woman has love for Jesus in their heart then they are my spiritual sibling, no matter what..Don't worry I still have love in my heart for the little fundamentalist oregan church pastor too.

 

[rainbowprism]

It isn't the healthy who need a doctor, it is the sick! I really can't believe that a pastor would throw you out of a church for this...Everyone has struggles and I think that as long as you acknowledge them and attempt to seek the right help for it, who is anyone else to judge you?

I do agree with some of the points J.A.I made though. Shacking up to a married woman would bear a bad witness. If God wants and intends for you guys to be together you need to trust that He will make the path clear for you...I know it's hard, I myself am guilty of having lived with a man before marriage at a point in my life. Something about it didn't feel right and I moved out.

But as far as the pastor goes...I might understand how he wouldn't extend membership until the situation was resolved but there is no reason you couldn't have been attenders there. What a tough situation....I really can't the call as to what's right here. Don't give up on the idea of church though, I'm sure you'll find one that is much more tolerant and more Christ-like.

 

[Rafael]

Actually, you really put this pastor to the test by revealing your sexual sins to him, and he did what was right if he wasn't mean to you in asking you to leave. This pastor loves you with the truth, and it takes a lot of courage and faith to stand on God's Word for the Church and for your sake. He only followed the instructions of Paul concerning fornication. It is not a judgment that is not allowed for the Church. As soon as you get things set straight, you should go and thank the man for not bending his knee to your situation, but standing firm on God's word in a time when the world demands more and more compromise of the truth. I don't condemn you, nor do I think the preacher does because we all are guilty of sin, but the word tells us to not eat with people in open unrepented sin and that they are to be put out of the Church as discipline. Check out the scriptures when Paul wrote the Corinthian Church. It is fairly plain:

1 Corinthians 5:9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin (fornication). 10 But I wasn't talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or are swindlers or idol worshipers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 What I meant was that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don't even eat with such people. 12 It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the wicked person from among you."

This pastor passed the test, for in the end times there will be many false teachers and prophets who will scratch the ears of people wanting their ears tickled with half-truths and unsound doctrine. He may be the pastor you could trust to tell you the truth no matter what; even under the preassures the world puts on the truth to be compromised as it will demand more and more that it be. Check it out:

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Timothy 4:3 (LIV) For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear. 4 They will reject the truth and follow strange myths. 5 But you should keep a clear mind in every situation. Don't be afraid of suffering for the Lord. Work at bringing others to Christ. Complete the ministry God has given you.

2Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach their destructive heresies about God and even turn against their Master who bought them. Theirs will be a swift and terrible end. 2 Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of them, Christ and his true way will be slandered. 3 In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction is on the way.

 

[sowellfan]

There's a big-time knee jerk reaction amongst people nowadays against the concept of one person judging another. Well, as the scripture in 1 Cor 5 points out (that I referenced earlier and Raphe just pasted into his post), it is the pastors *job* to "judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways." So the scripture is on the side of pastoral judgement and counseling. It should be done in love, but it should be done.

Paul's whole point in this section is that having a member of the church engaged in these things could act to bring down other members of the church, and he's right. If a high-school age kid in youth group knows that half the kids his age inside of that youth group who are in dating relationships are getting sexual, then he or she will feel less reluctant to do the same. That's where the whole 'little yeast leavens the whole loaf' comes in. The same goes for plenty of things other than sex, like how we run a business. We've all got to be accountable.

 

[charligirl]

It isn't the healthy who need a doctor, it is the sick! I really can't believe that a pastor would throw you out of a church for this...Everyone has struggles and I think that as long as you acknowledge them and attempt to seek the right help for it, who is anyone else to judge you?

Absolutely, if the person is attempting to seek help, we don't know if that is the case here.

One of the most vital things in a church is unity, anything that could bring disunity and sin into the church should be treated carefully but seriously. I would personally not be happy in a church where church members were living together out of wedlock, and it was all seen acceptable by the pastor... that bears a bad witness to others, however I do stress the term member.

We welcome anyone in our church on a Sunday, from homosexual couples to theives, however we have a church membership, someone can come on a Sunday forever and not become a member, but if they want to have a ministry or be in any position of leadership they have to show their committment by becoming a member and accepting the leadership of the pastor. People who are opening living in unrepentant sin, be that sexual or otherwise, would not be allowed to be members and have any leadership positoin. This is primarily to protect them and others who come to the church.

I agree that 1 Cor 5:9 is there to be used as a last resort, if you have explained the situation to the person, why it is against God, and they know it's wrong but are still unwilling to change or repent after you have tried to help then the pastor should ask them to leave. But it is a last resort to be used only when you feel the situation cannot be resolved and the persons will is set on remaining as they are.

It takes a courageous pastor to follow this and I imagine it wasn't done lightly. I don;t know the full situation, what was said, how long this has been going on etc so I can't comment on whether he was patient or harsh, but it does sound biblical to me.

If you know you are not living right with God then ask Him for a way to move out and live separately, ask him to provide the money/situation? He is always willing to help and He has not turned away from you, but he may have allowed you to be kicked out of a church where you could have harmed others by your witness.

 

[rogsr]

Is it right that a pastor or priest reject a seeker? How about some guidence instread? Jesus called Matthew, a sinner, and led him to repentance and truth. Jesus sat and ate with sinners too, and He took alot of flak for it, so are you saying what Jesus did was wrong because He didn't reject them? We should all by the grace of God through the Holy Spirit know what's right and wrong, and we should do our best to live in that. However, a church is a refuge for sinners and non-sinners alike, and for better or for worse we are a family. It should take more than just an uneasy topic or strange circumstance to reject one of our brothers or sisters. Take Abraham for example, he had enough sex with Hagar(his concubine) to make Ishmael, but he did this because his wife Sarah was barren(strange circumstance). Obviously God was not entirley pleased over this, but did God throw Abraham to the curb. No, He loved Abraham because he has faith, not because he is totally righteous. Our eternal relationship with God is established by faith not righteousness.

 

[Risen Tree]

The verses "get the board out of your eye before the speck out of your neighbor's" just came to mind....

The pastor should have stepped back a little and tried to understand you a little better. IMHO his greatest mistake was his impulsivity. He hastily jumped into finding out what you are doing before attempting to understand why you are doing it.

 

[LynneClomina]

Hello,
What is pleasing to God's eyes is love.

yes, pure, AGAPE love, free from sin....

We all need to remember the slimy scuz pool Jesus pulled us out of and continues to pull us out

eh, He keeps pulling us out, but that's no permission to go back in there.... we are still to be pure and obedient, and stay out of the muck.