Kabbalah - Is it Sound?

Toms777 · Jan 1, 2004

Could someone give me an overview of Kabbalah, it's impact on Judaism and/or Christianity and your view as to whether the Kabbalah and the Bible are compatible?

Hix · Jan 1, 2004

Real Kabbalah (none of this holy water rubbish Madonna professes to be involved in) is quite often misunderstood as being some kind of evil side to Judaism. I dont know much about it myself as Jewish law holds that only those of the age of 40 and upwards have the inteligence to grasp it, so il leave that for simchat_torah who I believe has the Sefirot from Kabbalah as his avatar.

iitb · Jan 1, 2004

Simchat_torah is probably the best qualified to answer this, but I haven't seen him around today.

Anyway, start with this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t67133 . It might be a little hard to follow in the middle as we had some trouble keeping it on topic, but it can probably answer your questions.

ldmitch · Jan 1, 2004

Kabbalah defined: It is a form of Jewish mysticism. Its followers use Gematria (Numerology) and magic formulas to try to unlock hidden messages in the Bible. "The Cabalists held that reason alone could never penetrate the exalted mystical experience involved in their perception of God and His mysteries. Esoteric formulas, numerological acrobats, theological mumbo jumbo went into the caballists’ efforts to apprehend God. The Joy of Yiddish, Leo Rosten, pocket books, 1970, page 61. "Elaborate number manipulations and abracadabras attended every conceivable interpretation of passages from the Torah and the names of the prophets." Ibid. page 61 "In Hebrew, the letters of the alphabet also served the ancients as numbers. Aleph = 1, bet =2, etc. Each letter, hence each word or phrase, possessed a numerical value. Mystics converted the numerical values into supposed keys to the meanings of passages in the holy texts and equated different words and phrases according to the total values of their letters: This naturally yielded startling coincidences. Where neither statistics nor probability theory existed, abracadabra could flourish uncontested. Gemetria starts with the premise, not uncommon to true believers, that the words in a holy text contain hidden and apocalyptic messages." Ibid. page 129 The Zohar is the textbook used by Kabbalists. A dangerous practice: A story is often told to warn potential students of the dangers of Kabbalah. Four rabbis began to study the hidden messages in the Bible. One became a lunatic, one became an apostate, one committed suicide, and only the fourth one, Rabbi Akiva was able to discover the hidden messages in the Bible. The following accounts about students of Kabbalah should give amble warning of its dangers. Rabbi Akiva and Bar Cocba. (135 A.D.) When Rabbi Akiva first saw Simon, he announced, "This is the Messianic King." Simon was renames Bar Cocba, (The star of the east), because Akiva believed that Simon was the fulfillment of Numbers 24:17, " I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth." Bar Cocba initially had some success in his war against Rome, and it appeared that he truly might be the Messiah. The power of Rome soon crushed his rebellion, Bar Cocba was crushed by serpents, Akiva was crucified. Abraham Ben Samuel Abulafia (1240-1291 A.D.) Through the study of Kabbalah, this Jewish mystic proclaimed, "The spirit of the Lord reached my mouth and worked through me so that I manifested many dread and awful sights with signs and wonders … When I reached to the Names and untied the seal bands, the Lord of all revealed Himself to me, and made known to me His secret, and informed me concerning the end of the exile and the beginning of the redemption." In 1282 Abulafia had a personal interview with God, and God told him that he had been appointed the Messiah. When after praying, he felt the oil of anointing cover his body he needed no further proof from God concerning his Messiahship. He set off to Rome with the plans to convert Pope Nicholas III to Judaism. He was imprisoned by Rome and was released upon the Pope’s death. The Jewish community rejected his claims, and he died in exile on the Isle of Malta. Isaac Luria (1534-1572) According to legend the Prophet Elijah appeared to his father when Isaac was born, which was considered a sign of this man’s greatness. As a young man, he studied the Zohar and Kabbalah. He heard voices and talked with Elijah, the prophet, who revealed the Kabbalistic secrets of the Bible. Apparently he had frequent talks with the souls of dead sages and rabbis, often talking with the dead in cemeteries. His disciples claimed he was able to perform exorcisms, miracles and talk with animals. He declared that he was Messiah ben Joseph, the suffering servant (see Isaiah 53) who would be a forerunner to Messiah ben David, the kingly Messiah (see Psalm 2). He died suddenly at the age of 38. Hayyim Vital: (1542-1620) . This disciple of Isaac Luria spent two years as an alchemist trying to discover ways to make gold. Eventually he left this endeavor for the study of Kabbalah. Vital spent much time with Luria, conjuring up spirits of the dead. After Luria died in 1572, he moved to Damascus obsessed with his Messiahship. He was convinced that if he could only find ten other great and perfect men, he could bring in the final redemption. Alas those ten men were never found. Shabbatai Zevi (1626-1676). This Jewish man was born on the Jewish holiday of Tisha B’Av. Jewish tradition teaches that the Messiah will be born on this Jewish holiday. Shabbatai Zevi was a student of Lurianic Kabbalah. One time he publicly dismissed the ten commandments and attempted to celebrate Passover, Pentecost and the feast of tabernacles in the same week. He also tried to reverse the laws concerning sexual morality, nudity and forbidden relations. Nathan of Gaza believed that he was the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah. Nathan convinced Shabbatai Zevi that he was the Messiah. Shabbatai Zevi told his disciples of his plans to travel to Turkey and liberate the Holy land from the Turks without fighting a battle. Instead of liberating the Holy land he was imprisoned, and converted to Islam. The year was 1666. Jacob Frank (1726-1791) Through the study of the Zohar and Kabbalah, Jacob became convinced that he was the reincarnation of Shabbatai Zevi. He proclaimed that he was the Messiah and that he was the living embodiment of God. He supposedly converted to Roman Catholicism, but was arrested and imprisoned for his heretical and sexual perversions. These students of Kaballah were deceived by Demons that were masquerading as Elijah or angels. 2 Corinthians 11:13 through 2 Corinthians 11:15 13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.They studied trying to find the hidden messages in the Bible, but failed to discover the simplicity of the gospel. 2 Timothy 3:7 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 2 Corinthians 11:3 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. What is the gospel message?1 Corinthians 15:1 through 1 Corinthians 15:4 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: These men all died in their sins! John 3:3 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:36 36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Recently several books have been written on the secret codes in the Bible. By using the principles found in Kaballah, hidden messages such as Rabin’s assassination are said to have been discovered. Sadly many evangelicals have been swept into this dangerous practice.In his Book, Signature of God, Grant Jeffrey tells us that the hidden Bible codes were discovered by two rabbis, Rabbi Weissmandl, and Rabbi Bachya. "Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl, a brilliant Czechoslovakian Jewish scholar in astronomy, mathematics, and Judaic studies, found an obscure reference in a book by a fourteenth century rabbi known as Rabbeynu Bachayah (also spelled Bachya) that described a pattern of letters encoded in the Bible." The Signature of God, Grant R. Jeffrey, Frontier Research Publications, Inc. page 202.Rabbi Bachya was a Kabbalah student and it was his study of Kaballah that helped him discover the Bible codes. "In the late middle ages, a revered Kabbalist and Torah commentator named Rabbenu Bachya discussed how, using "multiple permutations" it was possible to read out of the creation account in Genesis an encoded date at "equidistant letter skips" sigh: Sorry not enoughpostings to give website)The computers were used to try to confirm the codes that had been discovered by these two rabbis. To find the codes, the computer programmers type in a name such as Yeshua. The computer then searches the Old Testament forward and backward, using all sorts of intervals (every 3rd letter, every 4th letter, every 5th letter and so on) until the computer finds that name. Using such methods an infinite amount of combinations and permutations are discovered, and there will be hundreds of occurrences of Yeshua (and any other name!) A major problem has been discovered. Using this formula, messages that curse God and Jesus have also been found. sigh: sorry I do not have enought posts to give web site) There are many paths that lead to destruction. Kaballah is one of them! There is only one path that leads to God. John 14:5 through John 14:6 5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

iitb · Jan 1, 2004

When copying from another site, it really is polite to give them credit.

Hix · Jan 1, 2004

Nonsence. I cant speak for Kabbalah but the Zohar is a Midrashic commentary (and as far as I know, the oldest one in existance) that is not harmful in the slightest and only misunderstood becuase most everyday people dont understand the proper way to read Midrash.

sojeru · Jan 1, 2004

those that speak against TRUE kabbalah do not understand and that is why they speak against it.
Kabbalah is a fire, when inside the stove it provides warmth and good for cooking.
The stove is the Torah.
When Kabbalah is outside the stove it is a CONSUMING FIRE.

Kabbalah is another way to say the essence of HaShem
And HaShem reveals himself through EVERYTHING he has created- even in numbers...
Did not Paul also say that HaShem reveals himself through nature?

shalom u'bracha

Toms777 · Jan 1, 2004

There is some interetsing stuff here. I am particularly interested in the input from ldmitch and several areas that he has raised. For example:

1) the link between Kabbalah and the Bible code which seems so popular today. Here is one site that I looked at in this regard which seems to suggest that the Bible codes are in error. Perhaps we could get more input on that side of the topic:

http://www.yfiles.com/codebreaker.html

2) The reference to the four rabblis: "One became a lunatic, one became an apostate, one committed suicide, and only the fourth one, Rabbi Akiva was able to discover the hidden messages in the Bible. The following accounts about students of Kabbalah should give amble warning of its dangers. Rabbi Akiva and Bar Cocba. (135 A.D.) When Rabbi Akiva first saw Simon, he announced, "This is the Messianic King."

Bar Cocba, if I remember my history correctly, was a false Messiah. Would not these things tend to discredit Kabbalah?

What about the story of Jacob Frank?

Most of the responses to date have simply been statemenst about Kabbalah. Could anyone provide some sources to substantiate their views?

simchat_torah · Jan 1, 2004

Yes, I've been gone all day today. I've been visiting with friends, and I'm currently using their computer just to touch base with the MJ community here. I'll be back home later tonight to embelish on this topic a bit deeper.

shalom,
Yafet.

Henaynei · Jan 1, 2004

simchat_torah said:
Yes, I've been gone all day today. I've been visiting with friends, and I'm currently using their computer just to touch base with the MJ community here. I'll be back home later tonight to embelish on this topic a bit deeper.

shalom,
Yafet.

The MJ community misses thee.....

simchat_torah · Jan 2, 2004

Shalom LDMitch,

While I like to encourage a relationship between outside guests of the Messianic section, I'd like to make a small reminder that non-messianics are not allowed to aruge in the Messianic section. As well, I thank you for sharing your perspective on Kabbalah. However, I'd like you to possibly post your source citing author and title, etc. It is a part of the rules of these forums to provide, where applicable, citations to references you provide. Here is the rule:

.:Forum Rule 4:.

Rule No. 4 - No "Offensive" or "Illegal" Posts, Links or Images

4) ...This includes the posting of copyright material (for example, pirated software or music)....

So, where applicable, please provide references. Thanks.

Now, I think I can easily address much of what has been written in that short article without getting in too deeply. There is already a Kabbalah thread on these forums and can be found here: [url="http://www.christianforums.com/t67133"]http://www.christianforums.com/t67133[/url]
I will bump it to the front page as it seems we have a renewed interest in the topic.
I will not take the time tonight to actually argue for a pro-Kabbalah stance, as that has been done elsewhere (and to be more honest, I'm tired and heading to bed). However, I will try to address the various arguments made in the article you posted.

Now for your specific arguments...

Kabbalah defined: It is a form of Jewish mysticism. Its followers use Gematria (Numerology) and magic formulas to try to unlock hidden messages in the Bible. "The Cabalists held that reason alone could never penetrate the exalted mystical experience involved in their perception of God and His mysteries. Esoteric formulas, numerological acrobats, theological mumbo jumbo went into the caballists efforts to apprehend God. The Joy of Yiddish, Leo Rosten, pocket books, 1970, page 61. "Elaborate number manipulations and abracadabras attended every conceivable interpretation of passages from the Torah and the names of the prophets." Ibid. page 61 "In Hebrew, the letters of the alphabet also served the ancients as numbers. Aleph = 1, bet =2, etc. Each letter, hence each word or phrase, possessed a numerical value. Mystics converted the numerical values into supposed keys to the meanings of passages in the holy texts and equated different words and phrases according to the total values of their letters: This naturally yielded startling coincidences. Where neither statistics nor probability theory existed, abracadabra could flourish uncontested. Gemetria starts with the premise, not uncommon to true believers, that the words in a holy text contain hidden and apocalyptic messages." Ibid. page 129

Gematria is simply the study of Hebrew letters and their associated numbers. Various Mathematicians have written in science journals about the complexity of the Hewbrew language and how possibly it is divinely inspired. As you outlined for us, each letter is represented by a number. An example of this would be the numerical value for the word father + the numerical value for the word mother = numerical value of the word child . This at the very least shows a divine inspiration for the Hebrew alphabet as it is all so tied together numerically. No other language works out so perfectly. Every relationship that one can think of has a numerical value that works out in Gematria.

The only reason one would study Gematria is to possibly understand the relationships between Hebrew words that we might find further insight into their meaning. It has nothing to do with predictions, prophecies, etc. It also has nothing to do with Astrology, New Age, or Magick.

Simply put, Gematria studies Hebrew words and how they relate to each other numerically.

The Zohar is the textbook used by Kabbalists. A dangerous practice: A story is often told to warn potential students of the dangers of Kabbalah. Four rabbis began to study the hidden messages in the Bible. One became a lunatic, one became an apostate, one committed suicide, and only the fourth one, Rabbi Akiva was able to discover the hidden messages in the Bible. The following accounts about students of Kabbalah should give amble warning of its dangers.

While this story shows us an insight into the level of esoteric value the Kabbalah brings, it is just that... a story. It is not true, nor does it have any historical veracity. It is merely told to students of the Kabbalah so as to make an impact on them to keep HaShem as the focus. All things can lead us astray from him. However, if we focus our minds on his holiness, through Kabbalah one can learn about the attributes of his nature in a deeper fashion.

Rabbi Akiva and Bar Cocba. (135 A.D.) When Rabbi Akiva first saw Simon, he announced, "This is the Messianic King." Simon was renames Bar Cocba, (The star of the east), because Akiva believed that Simon was the fulfillment of Numbers 24:17, "

I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth." Bar Cocba initially had some success in his war against Rome, and it appeared that he truly might be the Messiah. The power of Rome soon crushed his rebellion, Bar Cocba was crushed by serpents, Akiva was crucified. Abraham Ben Samuel Abulafia (1240-1291 A.D.) Through the study of Kabbalah, this Jewish mystic proclaimed, "The spirit of the Lord reached my mouth and worked through me so that I manifested many dread and awful sights with signs and wonders When I reached to the Names and untied the seal bands, the Lord of all revealed Himself to me, and made known to me His secret, and informed me concerning the end of the exile and the beginning of the redemption." In 1282 Abulafia had a personal interview with God, and God told him that he had been appointed the Messiah. When after praying, he felt the oil of anointing cover his body he needed no further proof from God concerning his Messiahship. He set off to Rome with the plans to convert Pope Nicholas III to Judaism. He was imprisoned by Rome and was released upon the Popes death. The Jewish community rejected his claims, and he died in exile on the Isle of Malta. Isaac Luria (1534-1572) According to legend the Prophet Elijah appeared to his father when Isaac was born, which was considered a sign of this mans greatness. As a young man, he studied the Zohar and Kabbalah. He heard voices and talked with Elijah, the prophet, who revealed the Kabbalistic secrets of the Bible. Apparently he had frequent talks with the souls of dead sages and rabbis, often talking with the dead in cemeteries. His disciples claimed he was able to perform exorcisms, miracles and talk with animals. He declared that he was Messiah ben Joseph, the suffering servant (see Isaiah 53) who would be a forerunner to Messiah ben David, the kingly Messiah (see Psalm 2). He died suddenly at the age of 38. Hayyim Vital: (1542-1620) . This disciple of Isaac Luria spent two years as an alchemist trying to discover ways to make gold. Eventually he left this endeavor for the study of Kabbalah. Vital spent much time with Luria, conjuring up spirits of the dead. After Luria died in 1572, he moved to Damascus obsessed with his Messiahship. He was convinced that if he could only find ten other great and perfect men, he could bring in the final redemption. Alas those ten men were never found. Shabbatai Zevi (1626-1676). This Jewish man was born on the Jewish holiday of Tisha BAv. Jewish tradition teaches that the Messiah will be born on this Jewish holiday. Shabbatai Zevi was a student of Lurianic Kabbalah. One time he publicly dismissed the ten commandments and attempted to celebrate Passover, Pentecost and the feast of tabernacles in the same week. He also tried to reverse the laws concerning sexual morality, nudity and forbidden relations. Nathan of Gaza believed that he was the reincarnation of the prophet Elijah. Nathan convinced Shabbatai Zevi that he was the Messiah. Shabbatai Zevi told his disciples of his plans to travel to Turkey and liberate the Holy land from the Turks without fighting a battle. Instead of liberating the Holy land he was imprisoned, and converted to Islam. The year was 1666. Jacob Frank (1726-1791) Through the study of the Zohar and Kabbalah, Jacob became convinced that he was the reincarnation of Shabbatai Zevi. He proclaimed that he was the Messiah and that he was the living embodiment of God. He supposedly converted to Roman Catholicism, but was arrested and imprisoned for his heretical and sexual perversions. These students of Kaballah were deceived by Demons that were masquerading as Elijah or angels.

While all of these stories do have some historical value to them, how many stories can I tell of great christian leaders who fell astray and worshipped idols, gave up the faith, committed great sins, etc?

One thing I always remind those who seek to understand Kabbalah is this: You can not base a belief system on its practioners. You must base it on the value it represents inherrently.

In otherwords, I can not toss aside the Bible simply because Hitler used it as justification for slaughtering millions of Jews. Instead, I evaluate Hitler and his theology. We would aslo base our judgement on the Bible for the words contained within.

We don't toss aside Kabbalah because of a few nuts in history. Instead, we evaluate Kabbalah for the words it promotes.

For as many nuts in history you produce that fell astray under Kabbalah I can do 2 things:
1) Show you 10 times as many nuts who followed christianity.
2) Show you 10 times as many righteous believers who have used Kabbalah to understand the nature of G-d (fyi - many who are on this very forum).

In fact, I have known of Jewish believers today who were led to believe in Y'shua as the Messiah because of Kabbalah! But I digress, you can't judge Kabbalah on the basis of how of those who are righteous that have sought its insight, just as you can't judge Kabbalah on the basis of those who followed paganism, etc. You must, once more, judge kabbalah for what it is.

Finally, I'm not going to bother quoting the bulk you cited referring to the Bible Codes. But do let me say this, the bible codes have nothing to do with Gematria. Gematria is the study of the Hebrew letters and their values. The bible codes have to do with ELS (equadistant letter spacing). I can expound upon this in great detail later if you so choose.

Until then, Shalom.
-Yafet.

Higher Truth · Jan 2, 2004

Quote:

Kabbalah - Is it Sound?

HT:

In my opinion...no. Spend your time searching the Word. That is where the truth is.

Henaynei · Jan 2, 2004

Higher Truth said:
Quote:

Kabbalah - Is it Sound?

HT:

In my opinion...no. Spend your time searching the Word. That is where the truth is.

HT: do you also eschew the Talmud, as well as Henry, Ryrie, Wycliff and other great commentators of the scriptures?

Shalom,
Henaynei

simchat_torah · Jan 2, 2004

The very basics of the Zohar (the main book of Kabbalah) is Torah commentary. The texts of Kabbalah themselves are essentially a commentary on the mitzvot, the nature of HaShem, and the creation process. The only thing scary in Kabbalah is how many have misused in history.

shalom,
Yafet.

Hix · Jan 2, 2004

I can think of another that has been greatly misunderstood in time and that is the Targum. It is the oldest Jewish commentary on Isaiah, and like the Zohar if not read the proper way can be fuel for anti-semites. In essence a Midrash is NOT a translation or literal commentary, but a pedagogical style of teaching theological concepts that is not strictly dependant on the text it is using. So basically like Simchat Torah said they focus on HaShem and his greatness.

Christianity adoped Kabbalah and as far as I know still has a sect among it that still practise it as "mystical christians". this is FAR more closer to all the bad stuff on the internet these days about Kabbalah, which they call "Cabbalah". Come to think of it, its just far too complicated for me, im glad Im too young to learn it

sojeru · Jan 2, 2004

kabbalah is sound, just not for everyone

Toms777 · Jan 2, 2004

Hix said:
Christianity adoped Kabbalah and as far as I know still has a sect among it that still practise it as "mystical christians". this is FAR more closer to all the bad stuff on the internet these days about Kabbalah, which they call "Cabbalah". Come to think of it, its just far too complicated for me, im glad Im too young to learn it

Could you be specific as to one or more of the Christian groups that you are thinking of in this context?

Henaynei · Jan 2, 2004

Pray4Isrel said:
simcha_torah said:

The only thing scary in Kabbalah is how many have misused in history.

Click to expand...

And that in itself is what makes me hesitate...

Hix said:
I can think of another that has been greatly misunderstood in time and that is the Targum. It is the oldest Jewish commentary on Isaiah, and like the Zohar if not read the proper way can be fuel for anti-semites

My friends you forgot the most misused and dangerously misapplied and misunderstood and maladapted book in the entire world.

The Bible

How, then, shall we hesitate?

simchat_torah · Jan 2, 2004

hahaha.... exactly my point Henaynei. Exactly my point.

Hix · Jan 2, 2004

Toms777 do a google search for "christian mystics"

Kabbalah - Is it Sound?

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