Justify the Biblical Canon

aidrocsid · Jan 18, 2010

To begin, I'd like to make it clear that I have no intention of initiating a discussion of the accuracy of the information in the Biblical canon. What I suggest is that if we take all information within any translation of the traditional books of the bible for granted, there are necessarily divinely inspired scriptures outside of the cannon. This is an issue of internal consistency, not cohesion with the outside world.

Paul makes it very clear that scripture is divinely inspired, as we see below in both the King James Version and the New International Version.

2 Timothy 3:16
KJV 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is >profitable >for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
NIV 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

We can reasonably assume that the documents Paul and his compatriots use and quote as scripture were considered to be scripture by them. The following passages from the New Testament (KJV and NIV) and related passages from the Book of Enoch, particularly Jude 1:14-15 and Enoch 1:9, clearly demonstrate that the later was viewed as scripture by the authors of the former. There are a number of other quotations from Enoch in the New Testament, and if need be I will fetch them.
My question is this: how, seeing this, can Christians continue to justify ignoring what are clearly additional hints from God that radically transform the religion's cosmology?
Cue wall of scripture.

Jude 1:14-15
KJV And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these [men], saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly >sinners have spoken against him."
NIV 14Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
Enoch 1:9
"And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
Matthew 5:5
KJV 5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
NIV 5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Enoch 6:9
9The elect shall possess light, joy, and peace; and they shall inherit the earth.
John 5:22-30
KJV 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
NIV 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Enoch 68:39-41
39He sat upon the throne of his glory; and the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. Sinners shall disappear and perish from the face of the earth, while those who seduced them shall be bound with chains for ever.
40According to their ranks of corruption shall they be imprisoned, and all their works shall disappear from the face of the earth; nor thenceforward shall there be any to corrupt; for the Son of man has been seen, sitting on the throne of his glory.
41Everything wicked shall disappear, and depart from before his face; and the word of the Son of man shall become powerful in the presence of the Lord of spirits.

Hentenza · Jan 18, 2010

Thread moved to Exploring Christianity.

ebia · Jan 18, 2010

aidrocsid said:
We can reasonably assume that the documents Paul and his compatriots use and quote as scripture were considered to be scripture by them.

That's where you've gone wrong - just because someone quotes or alludes to a text doesn't make it scripture. I've just quoted your post, but I don't consider it (or mine) divinely breathed!

aidrocsid · Jan 18, 2010

ebia said:
That's where you've gone wrong - just because someone quotes or alludes to a text doesn't make it scripture. I've just quoted your post, but I don't consider it (or mine) divinely breathed!

So why does Jude call Enoch a prophet and then quote it?

ebia · Jan 18, 2010

aidrocsid said:
So why does Jude call Enoch a prophet and then quote it?

A text can be viewed as prophetic without being Scripture (TM), and vice-versa. That a piece of Scripture quotes another text does not imply that the other text is Scripture. It simply implies that the author (in this case Jude) thinks he can use that text in his message.

ephraimanesti · Jan 19, 2010

aidrocsid said:
My question is this: how, seeing this, can Christians continue to justify ignoring what are clearly additional hints from God that radically transform the religion's cosmology?

MY FRIEND,

Christians are bound to remain faithful to what God has laid out for them as the Truth. God's Church, under the direction of His Holy Spirit, has laid out the Bible's canon in its completeness and passed it on to all future generations of believers.

Having trapped yourself in the darkness of unbelief, you are not a believer and thus not qualified to hold any type of meaningful opinion regarding the Bible, its teachings, or its completeness. The Bible is a Spiritual work which those without, lacking God's Spirit, are unable to discern correctly. i understand your confusion and commiserate with your lack of understanding, but absolute faith in the Living God is the only answer to your quandary. Championing extra-biblical sources promoting gnostic heresies and trying to make them canonical just exacerbates the darkness in which you are trapped and will make it much more difficult for you to escape that darkness if the time should arrive where you decide to do so.

Perhaps your time now would be better spent seeking the Lord. When you find Him and at last surrender to Him, His Holy Spirit will enlighten you regarding the matters which you are currently ineffectively wrestling.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

aidrocsid · Jan 19, 2010

Hahaha you are very presumptuous, ephraimanesti.

Hentenza said:
Thread moved to Exploring Christianity.

I'm not a 'non-Christian'.

aidrocsid · Jan 19, 2010

ebia said:
A text can be viewed as prophetic without being Scripture (TM), and vice-versa. That a piece of Scripture quotes another text does not imply that the other text is Scripture. It simply implies that the author (in this case Jude) thinks he can use that text in his message.

What does a prophet speak if not the word of God?

legis225 · Jan 19, 2010

ephraimanesti said:
MY FRIEND,

Perhaps your time now would be better spent seeking the Lord. When you find Him and at last surrender to Him, His Holy Spirit will enlighten you regarding the matters which you are currently ineffectively wrestling.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

wow.

ebia · Jan 19, 2010

aidrocsid said:
What does a prophet speak if not the word of God?

Not (necessarly) in the same sense that scripture is the word of God. There's overlap between prophesy and scrpture, but they are not equivalent terms.

aidrocsid · Jan 19, 2010

ebia said:
Not (necessarly) in the same sense that scripture is the word of God. There's overlap between prophesy and scrpture, but they are not equivalent terms.

I suppose that I'd like to know what the distinction is, then, and how it is that this choice is made. I understand the idea that God presents us with whatever information we require, which is partially a justification of the value of whatever bible you've got, but God made the rest of the world too and presents it just as readily.

ebia · Jan 19, 2010

aidrocsid said:
I suppose that I'd like to know what the distinction is, then,

Prophesy is more about genre. It's a generic term for a message (supposedly) from a god, usually involving challenge or judgement. Scripture (TM) is a particular set of writings assumed to have a peculiar status as God's revelation both in nature of God's inspiration and its universal usefulness.

While two categories clearly have some connections, they are not equivalent terms.

and how it is that this choice is made.

Prophesy is usually presented as such and is identifiably by it's genre. Whether or not it's 'true' prophesy, ie genuinely from the one true God, is something that will have to be judged from its content and possibly infered from the character of the prophet who delivers it.

Old Testament scripture is simply that which Second Temple Judaism had come to regard as Scripture (which itself has blurry edges, but that's another story).

New Testament scripture is that apostolic writing which the early church came to use as scripture in its worship and eventually arrived at a consensus definitive list over considering such factors as provinence of authorship, quality and how universally it was being used in worship.

Most prophetic statements (even genuine ones) never got written down, let alone made it into scripture, and only some portions of scripture are prophetic.

aidrocsid · Jan 19, 2010

Well, thank you for being the person who finally gave me a coherent answer to my question. I may not agree with the premise but at least I have a better idea of where people limiting themselves to the traditional canon are coming from.

ephraimanesti · Jan 19, 2010

aidrocsid said:
Hahaha you are very presumptuous, ephraimanesti.

I'm not a 'non-Christian'.

Well, i'm just going on the information provided:

Under "CHURCH" you listed "other";

You are self-labeled a "Gnostic Apologist"--gnostic teachings being held heretical by several Ecumenical Counsels and anathematized;

You evidence unwarranted displeasure with the Christian Bible's canon of Books.

That totals up "non-Christian" to me.

Forgive me for taking you at your word!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

legis225 · Jan 20, 2010

double post

legis225 · Jan 20, 2010

ephraimanesti said:
MY FRIEND,

Christians are bound to remain faithful to what God has laid out for them as the Truth. God's Church, under the direction of His Holy Spirit, has laid out the Bible's canon in its completeness and passed it on to all future generations of believers.

....

Which of the three canons of Scripture do you subscribe to? The Protestant, the Western Canon or the Eastern Canon?

By the way, the most complete canon is the eastern.

ebia · Jan 20, 2010

legis225 said:
Which of the three canons of Scripture do you subscribe to? The Protestant, the Western Canon or the Eastern Canon?

By the way, the most complete canon is the eastern.

A gentle reminder to remember to discussion only with the openning poster, not with other Christian posts, in Exploring Christianity.

aidrocsid · Jan 20, 2010

ebia said:
A gentle reminder to remember to discussion only with the openning poster, not with other Christian posts, in Exploring Christianity.

Can you please move this to another forum, then? Because if others who are more knowledgeable than myself have something to contribute I'd really like to see it.

I changed my status to Christian so if you could put it in scripture discussion that'd be just peachy.

ebia · Jan 20, 2010

If they do that, it's liable to go to 'Unorthodox Theology', which is not the most amenable place for a calm discussion.

aidrocsid · Jan 20, 2010

Better that than stifled conversation.

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