Justaman.

Zoot · May 15, 2006

I'm very sorry, everyone. I assume this hasn't been mentioned here yet. And sorry for being abrupt.

Justaman, for those of you who remember him, killed himself on April the 13th.

I remember him most for our year-long arguments about the meaningfulness of life. He argued that life had no meaning, that suicide was the most rational course of action to take.

I argued that meaning is contextual, and to say that life is absolutely meaningless is as empty a statement as to say that it is absolutely meaningful.

Anyway.

I actually sent him a PM once, asking if he was serious. That was a few years ago. He said he wasn't.

Anyway.

Just thought you should know.

joebudda · May 15, 2006

Wow.

News to me.

All of a sudden I feel quite lucky to be living a happy fulfilling life.

David Gould · May 15, 2006

Terrible news. I am sitting here looking at a play he wrote, and had performed at a festival. It is a play about nihilism and suicide, and discusses quite a few of the ideas that he talked about here.

Flitter in the breezes
Dance within a stream
Twirl about a mountain
Sink within a dream.

The glass that sits upon some tavern bench
That, knocked, doth break upon the floor in shards ...
Wherefore this happenstance? What is this fate?

Do thou not see? There is no greater sense
To life's invented drives where time prolongs
It's stretched countenance to infinity.
What meaning, prithee tell, in life that never ends?
What greater purposes bests unhappy time?
There is naught: we are the glass upon the bench
That shatters endlessly throughout the world.

Gone.
Flitter in the breezes
Dance within a stream
Twirl about a mountain
Sink within a dream.

Justaman.

Danhalen · May 15, 2006

That's beyond horrible. I'm sorry for his family's loss, and ours. Thank you for letting us know Zoot. He will be missed by many.

Magnus Vile · May 15, 2006

I really can't think of anything to say, other than I liked his posts, and he seemed like a pretty nice guy.

And I'm sorry to hear that he's dead.

Zoot · May 15, 2006

His call.

Danhalen · May 15, 2006

Zoot said:
His call.

Yes it was. That doesn't make it any easier for those who remain. At least he went on his own terms.

seebs · May 15, 2006

I heard about this at FF.

It still sucks.

royboy · May 15, 2006

Respect to you Zoot for remembering him.

But how did you hear of his death?

Zoot · May 15, 2006

From Freethought Forum.

royboy · May 15, 2006

I guess he was really depressed. Was he also using drugs?

seebs · May 15, 2006

I never heard anything about drug use. Why would you ask?

ObbiQuiet · May 15, 2006

Wow. I had spoken to him a few times on here. I've seen enough "online suicides" that turned out to be frauds, though, so I can't tell if this is true or not.

Nihilism, to me, isn't a naturally depressing philosophy. The depression that's associated with nihilism is usually rooted in some deeper personal cause. I see it as sort of a front for something more basic that is wrong.

ObbiQuiet · May 15, 2006

Gone.
Flitter in the breezes
Dance within a stream
Twirl about a mountain
Sink within a dream.

Wow. That's beautiful.

Rosa Mystica · May 15, 2006

I remember him. He and I once had an argument over the meaning behind the Evanescence lyrics I used to have in my siggy here. His theory was that the author was asking God to help them commit suicide.

Poor guy. I believe he was only in his 20s. Yet another reason why clinical depression should *not* be left untreated.

royboy · May 15, 2006

seebs said:
I never heard anything about drug use. Why would you ask?

Just thinking about what led to his suicide. There's depression, his philosophy (at a glance), his writing, so I'm thinking drugs might have pushed him over the edge.

Nihilism, to me, isn't a naturally depressing philosophy. The depression that's associated with nihilism is usually rooted in some deeper personal cause. I see it as sort of a front for something more basic that is wrong.

+ 1

There might have been all sorts of things wrong. We can only guess I suppose.

ObbiQuiet · May 15, 2006

Drugs can lead to suicide, but I seriously doubt it's a norm.

dlamberth · May 15, 2006

wow...

it may be like you say, his call...I still hate it.

I find myself pretty speachless.

Thanks Zoot for telling us.

.

ObbiQuiet · May 15, 2006

This is something I've never quite understood (well, I think I understand it, I just think it's wrong): lets say everything is meaningless and that the nihilistic view is correct - why would this invoke suicide as somehow the only logical option? Even if life is meaningless and you cannot be certain of anything, why not just play along? The point of life, as I can see it, is to love and to be loved. If you can give meaning to these things, love people, love doing things, then why should any nihilistic thought hold sway? Yeah the universe may be meaningless, but you can give things meaning. You can create happiness out of darkness. If it'll all end in black anyway, why not spend some time enjoying it?

Which is why I say that suicidal nihilism is rooted in something deeper. Meaninglessness does not equal a justification for one's own self destruction. I think there must have been other things.

royboy · May 16, 2006

ObbiQuiet said:
This is something I've never quite understood (well, I think I understand it, I just think it's wrong): lets say everything is meaningless and that the nihilistic view is correct - why would this invoke suicide as somehow the only logical option? Even if life is meaningless and you cannot be certain of anything, why not just play along? The point of life, as I can see it, is to love and to be loved. If you can give meaning to these things, love people, love doing things, then why should any nihilistic thought hold sway? Yeah the universe may be meaningless, but you can give things meaning. You can create happiness out of darkness. If it'll all end in black anyway, why not spend some time enjoying it?

Which is why I say that suicidal nihilism is rooted in something deeper. Meaninglessness does not equal a justification for one's own self destruction. I think there must have been other things.

If you can give meaning to these things, love people, love doing things, then why should any nihilistic thought hold sway?

Not everybody has these things. You make it sound so easy. Creating happiness out of darkness? Jeez, I suppose it's about whether you're a glass half full kind of guy.

Justaman.

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