just wondering!

rmwilliamsll · Aug 21, 2006

Why are so many languages similar? Because we all origianlly spoke the same language.

i have an interest in linguistics can you point me to the scientific papers that show a single origin for languages. AFAIK the major language groups(families) are at this point thought to be independent.

http://www.krysstal.com/langfams.html

Maccie · Aug 21, 2006

Why are so many languages similar? Because we all origianlly spoke the same language. God scattered people thorughout hte earth and confused their languages

And many languages are totally dissimilar. The Romance languages (French, Italian, Spanish) and the Germanic languages, plus some Indian and Asiatic languages derive from what is called an Indo-European language. But Finnish, Chinese, and I think Hungarian have no relationship with the Indo-European languages, or with each other. To say nothing of the "native" languages of Aboriginals in Australia and the Bushmen of the Kalahari.

The study of the development of languages is fascinating, but very complex, and certainly has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Tower of Babel.

heatherwayno · Aug 21, 2006

theFijian said:
No one has a clue about heaven? Angels (not 'angles') have bodies? What the heck is happening in American churches today? Is there no teaching happening? Granted you're only 15 so I guess its not all your fault. I've already told you that evolution occurs in biological organism, angels are not biological organism, so they do not evolve. What my not having seen an angel has to do with it is anyone's guess.

Excellent point!!! What the heck is happening in American churches today? Is there no teaching going on? We have church leaders who are now saying that you can interpret the bible to suit yourself- it doesn;t have to be taken literally. We have church leaders who say that despite biblical accounts- the earth is 4.5 billion years old. We are learning that evolution is a fact- God did not create Adam in his own likeness- but rather created the first being as a simple meaningless organism whose sole purpose was to slowly evolve into a human. God did not create human- so reject the story of Adam and Eve. Reject the fall of man. Reject the parting of the red sea. Jonah did not speak to God from the belly of a whale. There is no hell. Do whatever you please becuase their will be no eternal punishment. The Tower of Babel was just a symbol for something else. God has put these stories into the bible so that naive people like myself would believe them and educated people like you will know better. Why then does it say that those who have ears to hear will hear... still others like seeds sown among thorns hear the word, but the deceitfullness of wealth and desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful. Others like a seed sown on good soil hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop, thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times what was sown. Mark 4:13-20. You hear the word, twist it around to suit your purpose and we have church leaders saying this is what God has intended? So I say Amen!! WHAT IN THE HECK IS BEING TAUGHT IN CHURCHES TODAY!!!!

heatherwayno · Aug 21, 2006

Maccie said:
And many languages are totally dissimilar. The Romance languages (French, Italian, Spanish) and the Germanic languages, plus some Indian and Asiatic languages derive from what is called an Indo-European language. But Finnish, Chinese, and I think Hungarian have no relationship with the Indo-European languages, or with each other. To say nothing of the "native" languages of Aboriginals in Australia and the Bushmen of the Kalahari.

The study of the development of languages is fascinating, but very complex, and certainly has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Tower of Babel.

NOT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT AND NOT THE WORLD- DESPITE WHATEVER SO CALLED EVIDENCE ANYONE GIVES!

heatherwayno · Aug 21, 2006

rmwilliamsll said:
Why are so many languages similar? Because we all origianlly spoke the same language.

i have an interest in linguistics can you point me to the scientific papers that show a single origin for languages. AFAIK the major language groups(families) are at this point thought to be independent.

http://www.krysstal.com/langfams.html

Sure- he is a source that you should consider-
According to the narrative in Genesis Chapter 11 of the Bible, the Tower of Babel was a tower built by a united humanity to reach the heavens. Because the hearts of men are inherently evil and disobedient, they were striving to make a name for themselves, rather than worshipping the God who created them. Because of their open defiance, God stopped this project by confusing their languages so that each spoke a different language. As a result, they could no longer communicate with one another and the work was halted. The builders were then scattered to different parts of Earth. This story is used to explain the existence of many different languages and races.

Try the bible as a source!

rmwilliamsll · Aug 21, 2006

Try the bible as a source!

i'm a Christian, i spend 3 long and hard years studying Greek and Hebrew so i could read the Scriptures in their original languages. but after all that effort i don't look at the Bible as a repair manual for my car, i bought a chiltons instead.

then present scientific evidence for the tower of Babel.

like i said above, AFAIK there is no connection between the various language families, they apparently arose independently.

but if you want to talk car repair refer to the car and that manual (to do linguistics refer to the real world of human languages) if you want to talk theology then use the Bible as an authoritative inspired document. Confusing the car repair manual with the Scriptures will not fix my car nor will it explain my need for sin (since the car manual doesn't talk about human sin but broken car parts)

God gave us the two books: one of Words and one of Works, you have to read the books in their right context, to confuse the purposes and directions of the two will only make theology brittle to criticism and a scientific metaphysics of materialism believable.

heatherwayno · Aug 21, 2006

vossler said:
Heather,

First of all I'd like to welcome you to Origins Theology. It's a place where, as you've already discovered, theology or the Bible isn't the primary source of one's ideas or arguments, but science is. TEs dominate, but there are a few of us YECs around just to make sure they don't step too far out of bounds.

I had to chuckle when I read this. I love your spunk, we could use you around here.

As far as your question here is a good answer from Answers in Genesis.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/AnswersBook/races18.asp

Here's an excerpt:

The Bible tells us how the population that descended from Noahs family had one language and by living in one place were disobeying Gods command to fill the earth (Genesis 9:1, 11:4). God confused their language, causing a break-up of the population into smaller groups which scattered over the earth (Genesis 11:8-9). Modern genetics show how, following such a break-up of a population, variations in skin color, for example, can develop in only a few generations. There is good evidence that the various people groups we have today have not been separated for huge periods of time.

The rest of the article is very interesting and worth your time.

Once again, welcome, stick around you'll find out things about your fellow Christians you never knew or thought of before.

Thanks for the link- I will check it out. I admit that I am not an excerpt about origins- but I know alot more that TE claim they do. My evidence lies in the bible- not the world. Yeah- I will stick around. Therefore- my evidence is credible based upon the source and shoots down any scientific mubo jumbo crap thrown my way. It just boggles my mind that Christians have such a hard time trusting God's perfect book!!!

heatherwayno · Aug 21, 2006

rmwilliamsll said:
Try the bible as a source!

i'm a Christian, i spend 3 long and hard years studying Greek and Hebrew so i could read the Scriptures in their original languages. but after all that effort i don't look at the Bible as a repair manual for my car, i bought a chiltons instead.

then present scientific evidence for the tower of Babel.

like i said above, AFAIK there is no connection between the various language families, then apparently arose independently.

Great- I am glad that you are a Christian. Why then is it so hard for you to just accept what God has to say? Do you need scientific evidence for the tower of Babel? If you say yes- you really should rethink how much trust you are placing in God. If it is in the bible- God has said that it happened. That should be all the evidence that you need- if you are walking in faith as Christians are supposed to.

rmwilliamsll · Aug 21, 2006

heatherwayno said:
NOT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT AND NOT THE WORLD- DESPITE WHATEVER SO CALLED EVIDENCE ANYONE GIVES!

step back and look at what you are doing.

if in fact, God gave us the Scriptures in order to be wise unto salvation, in order to show us how to believe and that in believing have eternal life, then it behooves us to actually listen to what He is saying and try to minimize how much we project from ourselves and our society into the Bible as we read it.

If God created the heavens and the earth and that the earth as a work of His hands reflects His attributes, then looking at creation ought to help us understand God. If when looking at human languages we find independent origins of the various language families then we have learned something about how God acted in history. To discard all scientific evidence that disagrees with your interpretation of Scripture is not to stand on God's terms but on your own, raising your human interpretation of the Scripture above the clear evidence of your eyes.

To cry that creation is deceptive and tricking your physical eyes is to deny that God created the world and to think like the ancient gnostics that an evil god created the earth and than physical things are evil and only spiritual things are good.

rmwilliamsll · Aug 21, 2006

heatherwayno said:
Great- I am glad that you are a Christian. Why then is it so hard for you to just accept what God has to say? Do you need scientific evidence for the tower of Babel? If you say yes- you really should rethink how much trust you are placing in God. If it is in the bible- God has said that it happened. That should be all the evidence that you need- if you are walking in faith as Christians are supposed to.

i am looking for help to refashion my hermeneutical principles from the world God created and looking for help analyzing my scientific principles from the Scripture, i try to read the two books of God together, not in conflict as do YECists. I do not believe that God would feed a false history to my physical eyes and ask me to disregard that testimony to his power and majesty while showing my spiritual eyes another totally different story. I expect God to speak with one voice, in both the Scriptures, in creation(hence the need to understand science), in the church as the body of Christ (hence the need to understand history),yet i realize that the power of sin continues to screw up not just my science, but my reading of Scripture and my understanding of church history. They all need each other to complement and help restraint the power of sin to deform and distort things.

to claim that the Holy Spirit will lead us into truth and then ignore and degradate His revelation in science and in history is to neglect God's means and to claim more for the Scriptures then they claim for themselves. To strain out the gnats(diminishing the authority of Scripture) we would swallow camels(neglecting general revelation as a source of God's truth).

rmwilliamsll · Aug 21, 2006

if you are walking in faith as Christians are supposed to

see an excellent essay at:
http://hypermetrics.com/personal/frd.html
faith reason and doubt

faith is not opposed to reason.
having our spiritual eyes does not mean that we ought to put out our physical eyes so that they don't deceive us.
true faith is not believing despite the evidence, but rather believing in the face of inadequate physical evidence.

we believe the resurrection not in spite of people finding the body of Jesus (faith opposed to evidence, like YECists claim of a young earth) but we have good but inadequate physical evidence to convince people of the resurrection. faith is the trust in God for the balance of the evidence in the final judgement.

faith is not anti-reason or unreasonable but exceeds reason in its grasp. faith is like the pole that extends your arms to reach the fruit high in a tree. it does not replace your arms, it doesnt substitute for your arms but extends them.

walking by faith is not blindly closing your eyes to the world around you and claiming that you are trusting God because you can't see now(the self performed frontal lobotomy group of Christians), but rather walking in a dimly lite path where there is not sufficient light for your eyes to function properly or completely and trusting God will guide you by shedding spiritual light on the path.

Jase · Aug 21, 2006

heatherwayno said:
The first intelligent answer I have heard!!!

If you actually knew how wrong that reply you just quoted was, you might not think it was that intelligent.

Jase · Aug 21, 2006

heatherwayno said:
Why are so many languages similar? Because we all origianlly spoke the same language. God scattered people thorughout hte earth and confused their languages. God is loving- but if their is no hell- what then is the punishment for not accepting the saviour? Why bother if there is no hell. Lucifer was banished from heaven- he is in hell. Those who do not accept Jesus go there as well. However- Jesus took the penalty for our sins.

Out of all that I posted, this is what you pull out of that? And the Bible doesn't say anything about Satan being Lucifer, or the fall of the angels.

Jase · Aug 21, 2006

heatherwayno said:
NOT ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT AND NOT THE WORLD- DESPITE WHATEVER SO CALLED EVIDENCE ANYONE GIVES!

And why do you put so much faith in a book, not even in it's original language that has gone through thousands of years of changes and translations and debates? Do you know how involved the creation and translation of the modern day Bible actually is?

Jase · Aug 21, 2006

heatherwayno said:
Thanks for the link- I will check it out. I admit that I am not an excerpt about origins- but I know alot more that TE claim they do.

You haven't demonstrated this yet. And based on the fact that you are trusting Answers in Genesis for your science clearly shows you don't understand it.

My evidence lies in the bible- not the world.

Who created the world? God? So you are saying your evidence doesn't lie in God's creation?

Yeah- I will stick around. Therefore- my evidence is credible based upon the source and shoots down any scientific mubo jumbo crap thrown my way. It just boggles my mind that Christians have such a hard time trusting God's perfect book!!!

The Bible isn't perfect. There are translation and copyist errors at the very least. Full out contradictions at the most. The fact that you refuse to even look into these means you are being intellectually dishonest.

And btw, using the Bible to prove the Bible is called circular logic and means absolutely nothing. If you want to have any credibility, using logic might be a good start.

Jase · Aug 21, 2006

heatherwayno said:
Great- I am glad that you are a Christian. Why then is it so hard for you to just accept what God has to say? Do you need scientific evidence for the tower of Babel? If you say yes- you really should rethink how much trust you are placing in God. If it is in the bible- God has said that it happened. That should be all the evidence that you need- if you are walking in faith as Christians are supposed to.

God gave us brains and science for a reason. Some of us choose not to dismiss them in favor of an ancient text never intended to be taken 100% literally. The Earth is part of God's creation too. Therefore we should study it. When we see a contradiction between God's creation and the Bible, something is clearly wrong. Most likely our interpretations of the Bible.

vossler · Aug 21, 2006

heatherwayno said:
I was thinking today about different races of people. I don't know why but I just started wondering if there was a biblical explaination as to why different races have different characteristics and why there are so many races to begin with. I am glad there is diversity in the world but was just wondering if the bible mentions anything about it and could it have anything to do with the tower of babel??

Here's what happens, someone new comes and asks the simple question stated above regarding races. This person is looking for a biblical response and for the most part has received anything except a biblical answer.

Instead, the Bible has become minimized with statements such as "When we see a contradiction between God's creation and the Bible, something is clearly wrong. Most likely our interpretations of the Bible" or "The Bible isn't perfect" or "why do you put so much faith in a book." We're told that our 'interpretation' must be wrong if it doesn't comply with the interpretation of the scientific evidence which is where our faith should really be.

The thread has degraded into a scientific argument that minimizes the Bible over scientific evidence.

Is it any wonder why YECs don't post here much?

Mallon · Aug 21, 2006

vossler said:
The thread has degraded into a scientific argument that minimizes the Bible over scientific evidence.

A scientific question warrants a scientific answer, don't you think?

The Bible isn't a science textbook.

What would you say if someone came here asking for a biblical answer re: mitosis?

rmwilliamsll · Aug 21, 2006

vossler said:
Here's what happens, someone new comes and asks the simple question stated above regarding races. This person is looking for a biblical response and for the most part has received anything except a biblical answer.

Instead, the Bible has become minimized with statements such as "When we see a contradiction between God's creation and the Bible, something is clearly wrong. Most likely our interpretations of the Bible" or "The Bible isn't perfect" or "why do you put so much faith in a book." We're told that our 'interpretation' must be wrong if it doesn't comply with the interpretation of the scientific evidence which is where our faith should really be.

The thread has degraded into a scientific argument that minimizes the Bible over scientific evidence.

Is it any wonder why YECs don't post here much?

i could quote the Hametic verses to show that black africans are created by God to serve the white race as did the great theologian Dabney in 1886.

i could quote K. Ham's analysis of

Luke wrote that God "made from one [Adam] every nation [ethnos] of mankind [anthropon] to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habitation" (Acts 17:26).

to show that all races came from Noah, just like Dabney believed with the exact opposite intention.

or point out that i cut and pasted it from a Christian racist website at: http://www.amren.com/0107issue/0107issue.htm that says that God created all the races to be genetically separate and to marry outside of your race is sin and something Christians ought not to do.

Modern theologians, Bible commentators, and pastors are quick to insist that Gods prohibition of such marriages was based on religion rather than race or ethnicity. Their shocking conclusion is that while white Christians are forbidden to marry non-Christian whites they are free to marry non-whites so long as they are Christians. They fail to see that Gods prohibition was based on both religious and racial considerations. God does not condemn interethnic or interracial marriage per se, but He does lay down a principle that would forbid it as a common or widespread practice.

or i could point to in Christ there is no Jew or Gentile but quote it from:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache...+mindspring&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8
(cached copy, site is currently down)
which is actually an extraordinarily well done site

where he says this verse has nothing to do with marriage or race and strongly says that Christianity is not equalitarian between the various races.

after all this, i can show perhaps a dozen key verses that people have lined up from one side to it's opposite.
from stormfront to aafrikaners apologizing for apartheid.
from one extreme to the other and everything in between
all using the same set of verses, all claiming to be the right interpreters of those verses and all different and opposed to each other.

and what have i gained, but to show that Scripture is used to show all kinds of things. and end up discrediting the Scriptures at the hands of those who quote them.

or i can talk about the science of race, there aren't any, that there is no scientific definition for race. That black Africans show a variation in alleles that exceeds all the rest of the "races" together.

53Isaiah · Aug 21, 2006

Mallon said:
A scientific question warrants a scientific answer, don't you think?
The Bible isn't a science textbook.
What would you say if someone came here asking for a biblical answer re: mitosis?

But this is happening. The OP asked

...I just started wondering if there was a biblical explanation as to why different races have different characteristics and why there are so many races to begin with.

(my underline)
Yet many people posted with scientific observation and philosophical responses.

just wondering!

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