Just Curious . . .

[KCKID]

I've been participating on the sub-forum now for a few months. During that time I've read many posts from just a few posters that really confuse me. I mean, they seem to meter out God's judgment on others (in this case homosexuals) as if they somehow consider themselves as being without any flaws (sin, if you like) in their character at all. In fact, the tone of the posts ARE at times glaringly pious. And, while they might quote scriptures of condemnation toward others (nice, huh?) you kind of know deep down that they are mainly voicing their own prejudices in the guise of 'godly concern'. In actuality, I'm sure that God doesn't need them to fight His battles ANYWAY.

I have a few questions for them and they are: Why do you consider yourselves as being 'better' Christians than the homosexuals on this forum who also consider themselves Christians? Who gave you the authority to play God when the playing field is a level one? Why are your own sins (if you actually confess to having any) of lesser weight than the so-called sin of homosexuality?

The questions are legit ones. I'm REALLY curious as to how anyone can possibly exalt themselves highly enough to consider someone else a 'lesser' Christian than they are. How does that work?

 

[savedandhappy1]

I've been participating on the sub-forum now for a few months. During that time I've read many posts from just a few posters that really confuse me. I mean, they seem to meter out God's judgment on others (in this case homosexuals) as if they somehow consider themselves as being without any flaws (sin, if you like) in their character at all. In fact, the tone of the posts ARE at times glaringly pious. And, while they might quote scriptures of condemnation toward others (nice, huh?) you kind of know deep down that they are mainly voicing their own prejudices in the guise of 'godly concern'. In actuality, I'm sure that God doesn't need them to fight His battles ANYWAY.

I have a few questions for them and they are: Why do you consider yourselves as being 'better' Christians than the homosexuals on this forum who also consider themselves Christians? Who gave you the authority to play God when the playing field is a level one? Why are your own sins (if you actually confess to having any) of lesser weight than the so-called sin of homosexuality?

The questions are legit ones. I'm REALLY curious as to how anyone can possibly exalt themselves highly enough to consider someone else a 'lesser' Christian than they are. How does that work?

Don't know of anyone who claims they don't sin or aren't a sinner, but I guess I could have missed those post. I also, haven't seen anyone say that their sins were not as bad as anyone elses. So not sure why anyone would profess they don't sin, because as we know the Bible plainly says we all do and that if we say we don't we are a liar.

You didn't post the link/links that show where posters have said they are better Christians, or where they claim they don't sin, and/or that their sins aren't as bad as others, so was wondering if that wouldn't make your accusations carry more weight? It would make you not seem to be what you are accussing others of being, a better sinless Christian, in my opinion.

Romans 3:20-23
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The above being said, that ALL sin, there are still things that Christians are to address to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are caught up in sin.

Matt. 18:15-17
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15 If your brother sins against you, go to him and show him his fault. But do it privately, just between yourselves. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]16 If he listens to you, you have won your brother back. But if he will not listen to you, take one or two other persons with you, so that ‘every accusation may be upheld by the testimony of two or more witnesses,’ as the scripture says. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]17 And if he will not listen to them, then tell the whole thing to the church. Finally, if he will not listen to the church, treat him as though he were a pagan or a tax collector. [/FONT]

Luke 17:3-4
3 If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
4 If he sins against you seven times in one day, and each time he comes to you saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him.

Gal 6:1
1 My brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in any kind of wrongdoing, those of you who are spiritual should set him right; but you must do it in a gentle way. And keep an eye on yourselves, so that you will not be tempted, too.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers and sisters, if any of you wander away from the truth and another one brings them back again,
20 remember this: whoever turns a sinner back from his or her wrong way will save that sinner’s soul from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.

1 Tim 5:20-22
20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.
22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.

2 Tim 4:1-5
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Titus 1:10-16
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


There are other scriptures that instruct us in the way we are to approach a Christian in sin, but don't know why I would need to post more then the above. If I am wrong just let me know, and I will post them.

So why is it prejudice to post scriptures to show people what is the truth and the way true Christians are to live? We are told to do these things but when we do, we are told we are haters, bigots, prejudice, etc.

If I post just the scriptures and say nothing, but just let the Bible speak, why does that make me those things? I didn't write the Bible and am just trying to follow it as best I can through the Lord, which is what we all are supposed to do if we are children of God, right?

We are supposed to hold eachother accountable, or at least that is how I understand the Bible. Do you believe it says something different?

It seems that both of us have questions.

Thanks for any response, and if you have anymore questions, I will try to answer them.

 

[OllieFranz]

I've been participating on the sub-forum now for a few months. During that time I've read many posts from just a few posters that really confuse me. I mean, they seem to meter out God's judgment on others (in this case homosexuals) as if they somehow consider themselves as being without any flaws (sin, if you like) in their character at all. In fact, the tone of the posts ARE at times glaringly pious. And, while they might quote scriptures of condemnation toward others (nice, huh?) you kind of know deep down that they are mainly voicing their own prejudices in the guise of 'godly concern'. In actuality, I'm sure that God doesn't need them to fight His battles ANYWAY.

I have a few questions for them and they are: Why do you consider yourselves as being 'better' Christians than the homosexuals on this forum who also consider themselves Christians? Who gave you the authority to play God when the playing field is a level one? Why are your own sins (if you actually confess to having any) of lesser weight than the so-called sin of homosexuality?

The questions are legit ones. I'm REALLY curious as to how anyone can possibly exalt themselves highly enough to consider someone else a 'lesser' Christian than they are. How does that work?
(emphasis mine)

savedandhappy1--

KC does say that the posters in question claim they are without sin, or that their sins are lesser. Merely that their actions indicate that they may believe that.

There are several posters, for example, who when confronted with Matthew 7:1-5, claim that it does not apply to them because they (in their own opinion) have removed the log from their eye.

And alhough for any other sin, especially the ones that they themselves fall prey to, it is not necessary to wipe it out of their life before accepting Christ. (In fact, according to Paul, especially in his letters to the Romans and the Galatians, it is impossible to do so by the Law. It is only by the Grace which comes through faith in Jesus.) But these same people insist that a gay person renounce his homosexuality, and show that he has changed his orientaion before they will allow him admittance into fellowship within the Church.

I could post links to their posts, but then, by "attacking" them personally, I would be setting myself up to be reported. It is better to leave them anonymous and uncounted. You can go through some of the old threads for yoursel and find them. They are not hard to find

 

[savedandhappy1]

savedandhappy1--

KC does say that the posters in question claim they are without sin, or that their sins are lesser. Merely that their actions indicate that they may believe that.

Why do you consider yourselves as being 'better' Christians than the homosexuals on this forum who also consider themselves Christians?

Why are your own sins (if you actually confess to having any) of lesser weight

First I will assume you meant to say that, KC doesn't say, as compared to does, and then I will point to the quotes above. I have underlined the parts that are saying alittle more then I think you believe they do.

There are several posters, for example, who when confronted with Matthew 7:1-5, claim that it does not apply to them because they (in their own opinion) have removed the log from their eye.

I have pointed out before that it doesn't say we aren't to judge, just that we are to move the beam from our own eyes before we try to help anyone. Would that type of statement be what you are referring to?

And alhough for any other sin, especially the ones that they themselves fall prey to, it is not necessary to wipe it out of their life before accepting Christ. (In fact, according to Paul, especially in his letters to the Romans and the Galatians, it is impossible to do so by the Law. It is only by the Grace which comes through faith in Jesus.) But these same people insist that a gay person renounce his homosexuality, and show that he has changed his orientaion before they will allow him admittance into fellowship within the Church.

We may be speaking of two different things here, because if they aren't saved then they aren't brothers and sisters in Christ, right? So, I would have to say you are right when you say we don't have to get be perfect before we accept the Lord as our Saviour.

Are you meaning that if someone professes to be a Christian we should allow them to, continue willfully sinning as long as .................maybe I should just ask that you maybe explain your true meaning for me, because I think I am getting wrong. Thanks.

I could post links to their posts, but then, by "attacking" them personally, I would be setting myself up to be reported. It is better to leave them anonymous and uncounted. You can go through some of the old threads for yoursel and find them. They are not hard to find

See your point, thanks.

 

[FindingaWay]

I agree.. as a homosexual, I have felt condemned on this forum by the brothers and sisters who I would have expected to prayerfully support me.
It appears that to some, homosexuality is the unforgivable sin!
I am attracted to other women... but that does not make me love Christ any less...
and if I sin, I am accountable to the leadership of my church, under God... not to strangers on a messageboard.
The model that Paul gives is for the local church, and comes out of relationship and a knowledge of one another's circumstances... it really can't be extended to casual acquaintances in cyberspace.
And if it is so extended, surely the righteous Christians should be cutting themselves off from us sinners, not seeking us out..

 

[savedandhappy1]

I agree.. as a homosexual, I have felt condemned on this forum by the brothers and sisters who I would have expected to prayerfully support me.
It appears that to some, homosexuality is the unforgivable sin!
I am attracted to other women... but that does not make me love Christ any less...
and if I sin, I am accountable to the leadership of my church, under God... not to strangers on a messageboard.

The Church isn't a building or denomination, it is all Christians with Jesus as the head, right?

Romans 12:3-5
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,
5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.

1 Cor 12:12-14
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit.
14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

The model that Paul gives is for the local church, and comes out of relationship and a knowledge of one another's circumstances... it really can't be extended to casual acquaintances in cyberspace.
And if it is so extended, surely the righteous Christians should be cutting themselves off from us sinners, not seeking us out..

A little confused here, are we talking everyone is a Christian, which I gave scriptures for those times. Or are we speaking about believers and non-believers?

 

[KCKID]

Don't know of anyone who claims they don't sin or aren't a sinner, but I guess I could have missed those post. I also, haven't seen anyone say that their sins were not as bad as anyone elses. So not sure why anyone would profess they don't sin, because as we know the Bible plainly says we all do and that if we say we don't we are a liar.

You didn't post the link/links that show where posters have said they are better Christians, or where they claim they don't sin, and/or that their sins aren't as bad as others, so was wondering if that wouldn't make your accusations carry more weight? It would make you not seem to be what you are accussing others of being, a better sinless Christian, in my opinion.

There's an almost naivity in your response, savedandhappy1, and I'm not really sure why. You surely know as well as I do what transpires on this board between Christians and 'gays' or the friends of 'gays'. This sub-forum exists mainly for some Christian 'anti-gays' to slam homosexuals and for some homosexuals (or/and anti 'anti-gays') to not unnaturally retaliate and defend homosexuals/homosexuality from the slammers. We certainly DO have professed Christians who exercise their perceived superiority over others (some of whom ALSO profess to be Christians) who they obviously regard as being MUCH MORE a sinner than they are. Otherwise, why would they even bother? Moreover, scriptural condemnations are aimed at others on the board even though it's doubtful that anyone knows anyone else PERSONALLY! We are all words on a screen!

By the way, I really don't think it's necessary to post links to specific posters on the board to somehow prove what is glaringly a 'them and us' situation. Besides that it would take me forever to do so ...there are MANY examples.

Another by the way, it isn't so much you, savedandhappy1, that I was referring to in my OP. It's doubtful that those I WAS referring to WILL respond, however.

Romans 3:20-23
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The above being said, that ALL sin, there are still things that Christians are to address to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are caught up in sin.

Matt. 18:15-17
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]15 If your brother sins against you, go to him and show him his fault. But do it privately, just between yourselves. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]16 If he listens to you, you have won your brother back. But if he will not listen to you, take one or two other persons with you, so that ‘every accusation may be upheld by the testimony of two or more witnesses,’ as the scripture says. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]17 And if he will not listen to them, then tell the whole thing to the church. Finally, if he will not listen to the church, treat him as though he were a pagan or a tax collector. [/FONT]

Luke 17:3-4
3 If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
4 If he sins against you seven times in one day, and each time he comes to you saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him.

Gal 6:1
1 My brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in any kind of wrongdoing, those of you who are spiritual should set him right; but you must do it in a gentle way. And keep an eye on yourselves, so that you will not be tempted, too.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers and sisters, if any of you wander away from the truth and another one brings them back again,
20 remember this: whoever turns a sinner back from his or her wrong way will save that sinner’s soul from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.

1 Tim 5:20-22
20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.
22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.

2 Tim 4:1-5
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Titus 1:10-16
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.
15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

There are other scriptures that instruct us in the way we are to approach a Christian in sin, but don't know why I would need to post more then the above. If I am wrong just let me know, and I will post them.

That's all fine and dandy but why is one (Christian) assumed to be sinning and to be held to account by another (Christian) simply because they refer to themselves as being homosexual? This more than implies that one's sexual orientation IS A SIN. I don't recall ONE post from ONE professed homosexual that has given ANYONE a reason to believe that they are blatantly sinning and in need of a biblical lecture. But many give a biblical lecture to them anyway whether warranted or not. In other words they have set themselves up as a mouth-piece for God (even though oftentimes it's clearly their OWN prejudice that is being projected) as though they are without sin. Example 1: He who is without sin cast the first stone. Example 2: He who is WITH sin leave the stone alone. Seems to me that NO ONE should even consider picking up a stone in the first place ...especially so since NO SIN has been specifically identified anyway! Again, one's sexual orientation per se cannot possibly be a sin.

So why is it prejudice to post scriptures to show people what is the truth and the way true Christians are to live? We are told to do these things but when we do, we are told we are haters, bigots, prejudice, etc.

If I post just the scriptures and say nothing, but just let the Bible speak, why does that make me those things? I didn't write the Bible and am just trying to follow it as best I can through the Lord, which is what we all are supposed to do if we are children of God, right?

We are supposed to hold eachother accountable, or at least that is how I understand the Bible. Do you believe it says something different?

It seems that both of us have questions.

Thanks for any response, and if you have anymore questions, I will try to answer them.

I've stated on more than one occasion that the word 'sodomy' (or the scriptural equivalent) was the original word that 'homosexuality' replaced. And, we all know that sodomy is both practiced by (some) heterosexuals and (some) homosexuals. Anything other than sodomy (or the scriptural equivalent) and adultery/infidelity in regard to 'frowned-upon' sexual practices are found nowhere in the Bible. Even then, sodomy was merely seen as 'wasted seed' and was extremely religious/cultural in concept. The only thing 'abominable' about sodomy is that it produces no off-spring. One's not following a command to add even more off-spring to an already overpopulated earth that can't adequately sustain itself anyway hardly seems to be an abomination.

We should all be aware by now that there are MANY scriptures that we ignore by virtue of the fact that we're far more enlightened and reasoned than were the ancients. To believe and to actually promote that we should apply to our lives many of the rather outlandish and ancient concepts/taboos as found in the Bible is ludicrous to say the least. If we are to do this for no other reason than to win favor with God like programed robots then we really DO need to question ourselves AND God.

For now, in closing, this 'let us start a new religion that specifically targets homosexuality' is a fairly recent one and is totally man-made. God/Jesus/the Bible has NOTHING to do with it. It is NOT of Jesus. Can you (anyone) not honestly see this?

 

[FindingaWay]

The Church isn't a building or denomination, it is all Christians with Jesus as the head, right?

Yes, I agree totally with that. However, there is , of necessity, an order and authority structure within the local expression of that body, and that is what Paul was addressing in his letters. If I sin, you are not held to account for it. However, the leadership of my church, if they know of it and do not bring correction, are accountable before God.
That is not a role to be taken lightly... and it can work only in a personal relationship, not on a messageboard.



A little confused here, are we talking everyone is a Christian, which I gave scriptures for those times. Or are we speaking about believers and non-believers?[/QUOTE]

I am speaking only of Christians here. If you, as a Christian, have warned us of the consequences of what you see as our sin, and we have not listened, surely you should cease to have any contact with us, rather than repeating the same arguments time and time again, as I see happening on this forum.

 

[savedandhappy1]

There's an almost naivity in your response, savedandhappy1, and I'm not really sure why. You surely know as well as I do what transpires on this board between Christians and 'gays' or the friends of 'gays'. This sub-forum exists mainly for some Christian 'anti-gays' to slam homosexuals and for some homosexuals (or/and anti 'anti-gays') to not unnaturally retaliate and defend homosexuals/homosexuality from the slammers. We certainly DO have professed Christians who exercise their perceived superiority over others (some of whom ALSO profess to be Christians) who they obviously regard as being MUCH MORE a sinner than they are. Otherwise, why would they even bother? Moreover, scriptural condemnations are aimed at others on the board even though it's doubtful that anyone knows anyone else PERSONALLY! We are all words on a screen!

I know that this sub-forum was started mostly because those who believe homosexuality isn't a sin wanted an area just for this subject because it was taking up most of A&P, and I think at the time everyone pretty well thought that was a good idea.

I know that I like some others here believe that homosexuality is a sin, and that we also believe that we all sin, as I pointed out with the scripture I posted from Romans 3:23.

I know that way to many times things get out of hand, and things are said that I don't believe is profitable from both sides of this issue.

I know that just because someone states that something is a sin doesn't mean that they don't believe they sin or that their sins are just as bad in God's eyes.

Why would they bother to tell someone that they are sinning? Well because as I pointed out with the scriptures I posted we are to do that, and would hope that my brothers and sisters would love me enough to help me, also.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers and sisters, if any of you wander away from the truth and another one brings them back again,
20 remember this: whoever turns a sinner back from his or her wrong way will save that sinner’s soul from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.

[QUOTE=KCKID;47569417] By the way, I really don't think it's necessary to post links to specific posters on the board to somehow prove what is glaringly a 'them and us' situation. Besides that it would take me forever to do so ...there are MANY examples.

Another by the way, it isn't so much you, savedandhappy1, that I was referring to in my OP. It's doubtful that those I WAS referring to WILL respond, however.
[/QUOTE]

I understand why you can't post those links, but I do believe that most of the post I have read had to do with homosexuality being a sin or not, not whose sins are bigger. I know that alot claim that is what is being said, but not real sure that is really the meaning behind alot of post.

That is ashame that those you addressed this to wouldn't want to clear any misunderstandings about their post, and will hope and pray that your doubts are proven wrong.

[QUOTE=KCKID;47569417]That's all fine and dandy but why is one (Christian) assumed to be sinning and to be held to account by another (Christian) simply because they refer to themselves as being homosexual? This more than implies that one's sexual orientation IS A SIN. I don't recall ONE post from ONE professed homosexual that has given ANYONE a reason to believe that they are blatantly sinning and in need of a biblical lecture. But many give a biblical lecture to them anyway whether warranted or not. In other words they have set themselves up as a mouth-piece for God (even though oftentimes it's clearly their OWN prejudice that is being projected) as though they are without sin. Example 1: He who is without sin cast the first stone. Example 2: He who is WITH sin leave the stone alone. Seems to me that NO ONE should even consider picking up a stone in the first place ...especially so since NO SIN has been specifically identified anyway! Again, one's sexual orientation per se cannot possibly be a sin.[/QUOTE]

All Christians should be held accountable if they are practicing/living in sin, according to the scriptures. and I believe the scriptures I posted show that.

Hummmm, I haven't seen anyone try and kill another person here, so not sure what the scriptures about stoning someone to death have to do with this issue. That may be one of the reasons posts are sometimes misunde rstood.

[QUOTE=KCKID;47569417]I've stated on more than one occasion that the word 'sodomy' (or the scriptural equivalent) was the original word that 'homosexuality' replaced. And, we all know that sodomy is both practiced by (some) heterosexuals and (some) homosexuals. Anything other than sodomy (or the scriptural equivalent) and adultery/infidelity in regard to 'frowned-upon' sexual practices are found nowhere in the Bible. Even then, sodomy was merely seen as 'wasted seed' and was extremely religious/cultural in concept. The only thing 'abominable' about sodomy is that it produces no off-spring. One's not following a command to add even more off-spring to an already overpopulated earth that can't adequately sustain itself anyway hardly seems to be an abomination.[/QUOTE]

Well this is where some of problem araises from, because we believe that there is alot more stated in the scriptures as being sinful then what you mentioned above.

Since this thread isn't about that so won't go into all the scriptures and what I believe they say, becasue you have seen and responded to them all many times already.

[QUOTE=KCKID;47569417]We should all be aware by now that there are MANY scriptures that we ignore by virtue of the fact that we're far more enlightened and reasoned than were the ancients. To believe and to actually promote that we should apply to our lives many of the rather outlandish and ancient concepts/taboos as found in the Bible is ludicrous to say the least. If we are to do this for no other reason than to win favor with God like programed robots then we really DO need to question ourselves AND God.[/QUOTE]

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but you aren't really saying that there are scriptures that don't able to this age, that were written for us to use after the New Covenant?

We are told that He doesn't change and is the same today, tomorrow and always, so trying to make mans thinking as better than the Creator is wrong. We are told that these things would happen thougth.

The Bible tells us we were created to please God, our Creator, so I am sadden that you don't believe He is worthy of that.

Robots no, just people who need to understand that God only wants what is best for us, and that since He can see the whole picture of our lifes and the world He is what we should follow.

The Israelites saw Him part the Red Sea, led them by a cloud in the day, and by fire at night......................yet you think we are more enlightened and reasoned
then them? I will admit we are more knowledgable about at lot of things, but believing that God should let us do whatever we think makes us feel better is way not what the scriptures say. The scriptures that tell us "if we think ourselves wise, we are a fool", comes to mind here.

[QUOTE=KCKID;47569417]For now, in closing, this 'let us start a new religion that specifically targets homosexuality' is a fairly recent one and is totally man-made. God/Jesus/the Bible has NOTHING to do with it. It is NOT of Jesus. Can you (anyone) not honestly see this?[/QUOTE]

Can you not see that it is the sins of man we are to be against and not tolerant of, and that is what most Christians are trying to do? The gospel message has been the same all through this age, and we are told that He doesn't change and is the same today and forever. As I think I have already mentioned.

We are to repent and daily pick up our cross and follow Him. We are at war with sin/principalities and powers, and we are to fight the good fight until He takes us home by either our death or His comes to get us.

We are to plant the seeds/gospel for the Holy Spirit to harvest to increase the Lord's Kingdom,. We are to choose the narrow path which leds to eternal life with God, and not the wide path of the world.

Homosexuality isn't new. It may have been called something else, but from the records I have seen the act/pratice has been taught as being a sin as far back as 50AD, if I remember right. The new thing is the church changing its stance on this and many other things, which just goes to prove why John was given the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation.

Speaking of can't everyone see this! All these things were told in the prophecies that are spoke of throughout the Bible, and I'm not just speaking of homosexuality. I am referring to all sin, the unsound doctines, the falling away, and the false preachers/teachers, etc.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Yes, I agree totally with that. However, there is , of necessity, an order and authority structure within the local expression of that body, and that is what Paul was addressing in his letters. If I sin, you are not held to account for it. However, the leadership of my church, if they know of it and do not bring correction, are accountable before God.
That is not a role to be taken lightly... and it can work only in a personal relationship, not on a messageboard.

I don't think we ever know for sure what may or may not work on a messageboard, because we don't always know who is looking for answers. Not everyone who might read the post here post here, and the Holy Spirit can use anything to reach those who aren't saved.

"All things work to the good for those who love the Lord."

I am speaking only of Christians here. If you, as a Christian, have warned us of the consequences of what you see as our sin, and we have not listened, surely you should cease to have any contact with us, rather than repeating the same arguments time and time again, as I see happening on this forum.

There are two points which are pretty is why I come and go here, and why I continue to post scriptures which speak of how sins will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of God are.

1. Love those I have posted to to much to not keep trying and,
2. I believe both sides of this issue should be presented for those who come here and read the post, but do not post themselves.

 

[BreadAlone]

For now, in closing, this 'let us start a new religion that specifically targets homosexuality' is a fairly recent one and is totally man-made. God/Jesus/the Bible has NOTHING to do with it. It is NOT of Jesus. Can you (anyone) not honestly see this?

I will admit there are certain fundamentalist groups (Phelps naturally comes to mind) that emphasize the damnation of homosexuals, sometimes above all else. This is clearly against the Scriptural mandate. Unbelievers don't need to be beaten with the Law, they need to be showered with the Gospel. Often times churches/denominations/individuals lose sight of this and feel it is their job to judge the world with God's law. This is against Scripture also. 1 Coritinthians 5:12ff "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?"

HOWEVER, we must continue on in that verse: "Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you.""

If someone is struggling with sin, be it of any kind, they should most certainly NOT be excommunicated from fellowship in their local church! But if they are blantantly living in unrepentant sin, or worse, trying to convince otherse to do the same, or trying to tell people that the sin is not wrong, then we need to "expel the immoral brother."

"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you.""

 

[Ohioprof]

I will admit there are certain fundamentalist groups (Phelps naturally comes to mind) that emphasize the damnation of homosexuals, sometimes above all else. This is clearly against the Scriptural mandate. Unbelievers don't need to be beaten with the Law, they need to be showered with the Gospel. Often times churches/denominations/individuals lose sight of this and feel it is their job to judge the world with God's law. This is against Scripture also. 1 Coritinthians 5:12ff "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church?"

HOWEVER, we must continue on in that verse: "Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you.""

If someone is struggling with sin, be it of any kind, they should most certainly NOT be excommunicated from fellowship in their local church! But if they are blantantly living in unrepentant sin, or worse, trying to convince otherse to do the same, or trying to tell people that the sin is not wrong, then we need to "expel the immoral brother."

"But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you.""

The problem with this argument, of course, is that Christians do not all agree about what is and is not a sin. Plenty of Christians do not agree with you that "homosexuality" is a sin. You would expel from the churches all those who hold a viewpoint different from yours, an interpretation of the message of Jesus different from yours.

People do not argue that homosexuality is not a sin because they are persisting in sinning or because they are the "immoral brother." People argue this because they sincerely believe it, just as you sincerely believe that they are wrong. Good Christians can and do come to different conclusions about questions like this. You can certainly argue for "expelling" those with different views if you want to. But this might do the churches more harm than good. It might be more helpful for people of different beliefs to engage in respectful dialogue with each other, and to accept that they may never agree about what is sin and what isn't.

 

[DMagoh]

...People do not argue that homosexuality is not a sin because they are persisting in sinning...

However, I have yet to find one Bible scholar who is NOT a homosexual write that it is not a sin. Even Tony Campolo, a Bible sholar who is a liberal political and social activist, agrees that homosxual activity is a sin. He does not believe that homosexuals should be expelled from churches or discriminated against, but even he knows what the Bible says.

 

[Ohioprof]

However, I have yet to find one Bible scholar who is NOT a homosexual write that it is not a sin. Even Tony Campolo, a Bible sholar who is a liberal political and social activist, agrees that homosxual activity is a sin. He does not believe that homosexuals should be expelled from churches or discriminated against, but even he knows what the Bible says.

Here are a few Bible scholars who are not gay who do not regard homosexuality as a sin, and who do not agree with you about what the Bible says:

Rev Dr William R Stayton, Bishop John Shelby Spong, Bishop R. Steward Wood, Jr, Rabbi Dr David Teutsch, Rabbi Marc H Wilson, Bishop Stanley E Olson, Rev Dr George R Edwards, Rev Harry L Holfelder, Sister Mary Ann Ford, Sister Jeannine Gramick, Rev C Robert Nugent, Rev Dr William F Schulz, Dr Karen Lebacqz, Rev Dr James B Nelson, Rev Dr Professor John B Cobb Jr, Bishop Melvin Wheatley Jr.

 

[BreadAlone]

The problem with this argument, of course, is that Christians do not all agree about what is and is not a sin. Plenty of Christians do not agree with you that "homosexuality" is a sin. You would expel from the churches all those who hold a viewpoint different from yours, an interpretation of the message of Jesus different from yours.

There's a difference between misunderstanding and willful ignorance.

People do not argue that homosexuality is not a sin because they are persisting in sinning or because they are the "immoral brother." People argue this because they sincerely believe it, just as you sincerely believe that they are wrong. Good Christians can and do come to different conclusions about questions like this. You can certainly argue for "expelling" those with different views if you want to. But this might do the churches more harm than good. It might be more helpful for people of different beliefs to engage in respectful dialogue with each other, and to accept that they may never agree about what is sin and what isn't.

We certainly would not "expel" in the sense of barring them from hearing the word of God. The would simply be excluded from membership and the Sacrament. (It's good to see you again, btw! )

 

[Ohioprof]

There's a difference between misunderstanding and willful ignorance.



We certainly would not "expel" in the sense of barring them from hearing the word of God. The would simply be excluded from membership and the Sacrament. (It's good to see you again, btw! )

My argument to you is that Christians who disagree with your interpretation or understanding of the Bible are exhibiting neither misunderstanding nor willful ignorance. They just interpret or understand the Bible differently from you.

It's good to see you also. I hope you've been well.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I hope I don't qualify as one of the people. I don't do any of those things, and if I do...I hope I get killed before I do it again.

 

[jamielindas]

I'm still confused as to why being gay is a sin that requires the involvement of the state to prohibit, but being an atheist and atheist marriage is totally cool?

So... being gay is a sin... but being an atheist is not?

 

[KCKID]

However, I have yet to find one Bible scholar who is NOT a homosexual write that it is not a sin. Even Tony Campolo, a Bible sholar who is a liberal political and social activist, agrees that homosxual activity is a sin. He does not believe that homosexuals should be expelled from churches or discriminated against, but even he knows what the Bible says.

Tony Campolo says that he's beginning to swing more to his wife, Peggy's, views on homosexuality than he once would have done. I have the impression - and I could be wrong - that he now realizes the traditionally accepted scriptures allegedly pertaining to homosexuality are not quite as cut and dried as he once believed. He and his wife, Peggy, can be heard discussing this very issue by clicking http://www.gaychristian.net/campolos.php

Incidentally, the OP asks how one sinner can legitimately point out another's sins to them. Do you have anything to say about that?

 

[KCKID]

I'm still confused as to why being gay is a sin that requires the involvement of the state to prohibit, but being an atheist and atheist marriage is totally cool?

So... being gay is a sin... but being an atheist is not?

You're not going to get a satisfactory response. This is one of those questions that most Christians would prefer to put into the 'too-hard to answer' basket.