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TinyPlankton

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Hello

How do Christians interpret Judges 19?

Is it suggesting that a man with homosexual inclinations would be better off raping a woman than having relations with a man? If not, what is it teaching you? Why is the Bible showing a story that it's OK to give your daughter, or any other woman, to a group of men for sex?

How does it feel for you that this chapter is in the Bible/Word of God?

Do you feel sorry for the concubine, or the virgin daughter if she had been likewise gang-raped and left to die?
 

pshun2404

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Stop it! The Bible nowhere says it supports this nor that it was good to do this. It is reporting a true story of how evil these sodomites can be. They are called the children of Belial. They are not homosexuals but bisexual hedonists and they are beasts of the field. This man's concern was for the angel who had come to him and he must have had more regard for him than for his concubine and Lot's daughters were probably not virgins...they molested their own father as soon as they were away from danger and he got drunk. This is like saying when Peter lied the Bible was supporting that as well...the Bible tells the truth and it was the truth Peter lied but his lie was not the truth...

May the Lord lead you into truth...the truth will set you free...

Paul
 
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TinyPlankton

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Thanks for you reply, but I'm still confused about what this chapter is trying to teach.

The old man certainly did prefer the man who was staying at his place and was happy to give his virgin daughter to them.

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this outrageous thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But as for this man, don’t do such an outrageous thing.”

Is this meant to be part of the story of Lot?
 
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TinyPlankton

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Oh, I see, it's all ok, the Israelites killed all the Benjamites (even the animals) in the end so I guess we call it even?

46 On that day twenty-five thousand Benjamite swordsmen fell, all of them valiant fighters. 47 But six hundred of them turned and fled into the wilderness to the rock of Rimmon, where they stayed four months. 48 The men of Israel went back to Benjamin and put all the towns to the sword, including the animals and everything else they found. All the towns they came across they set on fire.
 
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Lukaris

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I think the scripture is stating at this point in Judges is that the whole social fabric was falling apart and the similarity to the degenerate situation Lot was in is apt.These brutal situations fit the more tragic aspect of Ecclesiastes 1:9, "There is nothing new under the sun."
 
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pshun2404

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Thanks for you reply, but I'm still confused about what this chapter is trying to teach.

The old man certainly did prefer the man who was staying at his place and was happy to give his virgin daughter to them.

Is this meant to be part of the story of Lot?

So you neer read the story of lot? Are you trolling or actually interested in a discussion of these things? Hmmm? The way in your next post how you use diversion to another issue seems to indicate this. One thing at a time. Diversion is a magicians trick.

In this story, we are not seeing "God's will" we are seeing how brutally evil these godless children of Belial (pagan Benjamites who did that which was right in their own eyes, not God's) behave. Nothing says this person was "happy" to give up his virgin daughter or his concubine but as an alternative to the result of total rape, torture and slaughter of everyone in his household. The concubine he gives them already was revealed in verse 2 to have gone whoring (just like the Benjamites in this case who went whoring after false gods or believed in no god other than self). She herself was part of that culture which had originally covenanted with God (a specific law based if/then covenant) and turned its back on God acting as lords of their own lives.

The Lot reference was because in a similar situation when confronted by evil sodomites (who had not regard for anyone's life but their own pleasure) he offers them his two "virgin" daughters. Lot is deluded. His daughters were raised in Sodom and Gomorrah and were not even close to being virgins.

This scene in judges takes place long after the Israelites (which included the tribe of Benjamin) had covenanted with the Lord at Horeb. The covenant was very specific. Therefore, under the agreement they said they would follow and adhere to (unlike the other covenants the Lord had made over time), obedience to God's way was to be rewarded and violation of God;s way was punishable by death. So death for her as well as for the Benjamites later was totally just and good under "the Law". These were the terms of the deal they had made with Him. Under the New Covenant (which is grace based and a result of Christ willfully paying the penalty of death for us) the scene would have unfolded differently. But understand the godless are ultimately not to be trusted to be graceful and if given power take that power absolutely to a tyrannical ends. We see this even in modern history. The nations which politically reject God and do what is right in their own eyes always end up disregarding the life and humanity of individuals (Stalin's Russia, Hitler's Germany, Moa's China, Castros Cuba, etc., all reject God for a godless neo-Darwinianism).

Therefore I understand how being brought up under modern western sentiments can cause one to believe they can judge God and the consequences of such things but alas it is we who lack proper judgment of such scenarios not God. We are more humane only because we are post Christ, otherwise we would all still be beasts of the field ourselves.

Paul
 
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miamited

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Hi tinyplankton,

The account isn't trying to 'teach' some earth shattering message from which we shall all learn of the righteousness of God.

It is merely an account of an incident that happened in the days before the kings of Israel and what it is 'showing', as it says of itself, this is how wicked people had become. It's not given to be some miraculous epiphany to which we say, "Oh, that's what God wants us to understand."

So, while I appreciate your desire to 'study' the Scriptures, for in them you will find the only way of salvation for your soul, be careful that you don't read more into things than may actually be intended. Historical accounts are rarely about us 'learning' anything to set as some life goal, but are usually given so that we 'learn' what the people in the time of the historical account were doing and thinking.

If you read some historical account about Abraham Lincoln, the writer is probably not trying to change your life, but merely give some insight into the thoughts and actions of Abraham Lincoln. What kind of situations and decisions did he come into in his life. What might have driven him to be the man that he was. It's rarely about you. Similarly, historical accounts in the Scriptures are about our 'learning' what life may have been like in that time and the situations and decisions that were a part of the lives of those living then.

But... that is not to say that there aren't things we can learn about mankind in general through the Scriptures and what they teach. This is one of the reasons why it is required to have the indwelling Holy Spirit to give discernment. You see, Paul encouraged Timothy to 'rightly' divide the Scriptures. This would clearly infer that there are ways in which the Scriptures might be 'wrongly' divided. It is, as Jesus said, the work of the Holy Spirit to lead the born again believer into all truth.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted
 
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mercy1061

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There are very important details that we must be careful to denote here in Judges 19.

The very first detail is that there is no king to maintain order among men; normally the priests would receive help or support from the king. This levite man, born from a family of priests has a concubine (bondservant) but no wife; no descendants. This is very problematic in those days, considering that many times in those days the bondservant was usually the wife's handmaid. The husband or master would consider his wife's handmaid if his wife was barren. This man has a bondervant no wife and no descendants. This levite may be reaping what he has sown, although there is nothing to reap at harvest (he has no descendants). Perhaps these evil men desire to execute judgment on this levite, this levite takes a bondservant to have no children; but refuses to take a wife. This may be no different than homosexuality; homosexuals do not bear children.

Now this bondservant or concubine may not actually have been "whoring" but maybe she is like a "second-class" wife or prostitute; with no first class wife to follow after. According to the law of Moses, if the master marries his bondservant he may never deny her wages that she received as a bondservant. If the master become displeased with his bondservant he has broken faith with her, then she returns to her father's house. The levite then goes after the bondservant, meets her father; his father in law, the father is pleased with this levite man. Doesn't sound like this bondservant was going around "whoring" or else the levite man would not have pursued her in her father's house.

The evil men in the city probably heard about this levite's peculiar ways; and sought to kill him, the residents in the city even refused this levite a lodging place but the old man sought to save his life by offering them his bondservant's life and the virgin daughter. Notice how these evil men would not listen to him but only defiled the levite's concubine and let the virgin daughter go free.
 
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TinyPlankton

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Thank you pshun, Ted, and Mercy for taking the time for detailed replies.

I'm not quite a troll, more like a regular person upset over a perceived injustice. Rape of anyone makes me very angry (as I hope it makes all of you angry as well) and Judges 19 makes it look ok. It's not until a couple of chapters later (yes I did keep reading :O ) after a section about telling the Benjamite survivers to steal a bunch of other women to have for wives, that it says one line, something like 'this was the time when there was no king' which made me think the stories were meant to be examples of lawlessness.

I'm not sure I agree with wholesale killing of the people and animals of entire towns but I guess that's just what people did back then.
 
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pshun2404

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Imagine in the human body, each cell as an individual life form, which actually it is. They each likewise function as part of a specific local community (the heart, the lungs, the blood stream, etc.,). Different cells, and groups of cells, display differences in structure, appearance, life-span, function, etc., just like different humans and groups of humans! Each cell in relation to the other cells, and as a member of their particular cellular community, knowingly or unknowingly works as an intricate part of a whole which is greater than the sum of its parts. The human host, of which it is but a tiny almost insignificant part, is as the Lord is to us, in relation to the members of His body. The individual cell’s instinctual purpose, like our own, is to work to maintain and protect its self life, as well as the goals of its community life. But it's higher purpose is to benefit the will of the Host.

One of the ways they assure the survival of their type is through self-replication or offspring. Their higher purpose is actually to achieve our will and our good purpose though they are most probably totally unaware, or only vaguely, that we, as their human host, even exists. They understand little if anything about us, and our ways are higher than their ways, our thoughts are higher than their thoughts, if indeed it can be said that they even have any. They go about more or less doing the right thing in relation to one another unaware of the part they are playing in working within our overall purpose and will. Beyond their circumstantial perceptions they are working and interacting to optimize our quality of life and helping to fulfill our long term plans.

Now then, each individual cell is created in our image. They contain the image of their host within each of them (called DNA). They probably can sense an order and function interactively to enhance their mutually dependable existence. The span of their existence may be miniscule in relation to their human host, but to them it is a lifetime.

Sad as this truth is, every once in a while, a cell or some group of cells, decides they are going to do their own thing. They’re going to be their own lord if you will. They seemingly become self-willed and rebellious toward the established order. They begin to gain new converts so to speak, in great numbers, and nothing is going to stop them from their plan to take over. We call this actual biological phenomena “Cancer”!

These terrorist or barbarous cells literally go into attack mode and start sapping the life out of the surrounding cells, killing as many as necessary in pursuit of their self-willed agenda. At first the effect of their violence upon their community of cells is slight and almost unnoticeable, causing some alarm, discomfort, and intermittent disturbance here and there. Regulatory norms are enforced by the greater community, and often these violent murderous outbreaks are remedied without bringing much attention or alarm to the neighboring cellular communities. However, on occasion these cells reject these corrective measures and rebel even further extending there influence outward, and begin to influence their surroundings in such a way that the immune system is alerted, and the local community has to call in specialists to eliminate these criminal cells in an attempt to protect the near by individuals, and the society at large. These are usually in the form of “anti-bodies” and white blood cells, that specialize in response to the types of violent rebellion these particular cellular individuals impose. Why try to eliminate them? Because of the inevitable threat they cause to individuals and to the greater society. The literally bring a sort of chaos into the order of things destroying the work being done there. If left on their own without being stopped they will continue to maliciously destroy and entirely take over. The forces alerted to remedy the problem will stop at nothing to prevent more senseless murder and mayhem and if necessary will even kill them. They even try surrounding them and trapping them as a first attempt by encapsulating them in a membrane or prison if you will.

If they get too powerful, or for some non-sensible reason are released, or break out of their captivity, or get away with their self-lordship too long, the cell’s lord, the human host, begins to take notice and likewise goes on alert. It likewise then takes any steps necessary to overcome or even kill the Cancer before it gets too powerful. It will irradiate, cut out, laser roast, or even chop off a limb in order to preserve the greater good and sometimes the life of the whole. Often times a number of good healthy citizen cells are called on to make the sacrifice of self for the greater good. Sometimes just the act of chasing down these devils and getting at them causes the sacrifice of good, innocent, healthy, cellular individuals. As tragic as this may seem it is the necessary price that must be paid to protect and save the most lives in the community.

So it is with God! Occasionally, God sees the development of a human cancer growing stronger and stronger. The appropriate members of the human community at large are being intimidated, persuaded, abused, and even eliminated. Sometimes He sees that resistance attempts have been, or will continue to be futile, and so He must step in and take action to save the many, to work the greater overall good, even though we may not fully comprehend the extent of this benefit at the time. When we have to go in and wipe out a cancer are we not grieved? There just are times when certain individuals or groups are determined to work their will against the wellbeing of others, or against the will and best interests of their Lord, and so He has to step in and fix the problem by getting rid of these human cancers, and by this He repairs the damage. Again, sometimes seemingly innocent individuals or perhaps many, may lose their lives as well. Jesus understood this principle and so He willfully laid down His own “bios” life. Mahatma Ghandi understood this. Martin Luther King Jr. also understood this.

Paul
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thank you pshun, Ted, and Mercy for taking the time for detailed replies.

I'm not quite a troll, more like a regular person upset over a perceived injustice. Rape of anyone makes me very angry (as I hope it makes all of you angry as well) and Judges 19 makes it look ok. It's not until a couple of chapters later (yes I did keep reading :O ) after a section about telling the Benjamite survivers to steal a bunch of other women to have for wives, that it says one line, something like 'this was the time when there was no king' which made me think the stories were meant to be examples of lawlessness.

I'm not sure I agree with wholesale killing of the people and animals of entire towns but I guess that's just what people did back then.

That's more-or-less the consistent theme of Judges, it continually paints the time as lawless, and barbaric. Which is by no means the ideal state to live in.

What's always important to keep in mind is that often the Bible is being descriptive, rather than proscriptive. Often it refers to events without offering any moral valuation whatsoever. Since human beings are usually messy we should expect the Bible, which talks about human beings, to be rather messy as well.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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gtopawb

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What's always important to keep in mind is that often the Bible is being descriptive, rather than proscriptive. Often it refers to events without offering any moral valuation whatsoever. Since human beings are usually messy we should expect the Bible, which talks about human beings, to be rather messy as well.
 
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