LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

Jane_Doe said:

How about we discuss the words and deeds of your fellow Christians, do you approve of thier actions? I've seen you cite some of these "sources" before.

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It's really off topic. Please see the title of this thread.

I don't see what talking about what other people do that are not myself, nor do I know these people.

fatboys said:

There are 16 million and has only been around for almost 200 hundred years it is the fastest growing church

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There are not 16 million. Not even close. And who counts 8 year olds anyway. Those numbers are so padded, those are numbers from every person that has ever attended a ward, plus every baptism, plus every one 8 and older.

The number is about 4.5 million active, practicing Mormons.

Because of the count twisting is why you believe you are the fastest growing church. In faith and with God it is not a numbers thing. No one knows the true numbers because there is NO DATA.

fatboys said:

There are 16 million and has only been around for almost 200 hundred years it is the fastest growing church

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According to CNN and the Pew Report, Islam is the world's fastest growing faith. By the way, the fact that the LDS church has been around for much less time than the other major religions makes it easier, not harder, to 'grow faster', percentage-wise.

Albion said:

According to CNN and the Pew Report, Islam is the world's fastest growing faith. By the way, the fact that the LDS church has been around for much less time than the other major religions makes it easier, not harder, to 'grow faster', percentage-wise.

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Both very good sources with great data .... substantiated, real data.

ToBeLoved said:

those are numbers from every person that has ever attended a ward, plus every baptism, plus every one 8 and older.

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Incorrect: only baptized individuals are counted as members. Visitors and all non-baptisized people are not members.

Jane_Doe said:

Incorrect: only baptized individuals are counted as members. Visitors and all non-baptisized people are not members.

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I'm sorry Jane, but there is no data so you cannot support that argument with anything, so it is opinion.

Regardless, it is reported that the LDS have a rather high number--relative to most other churches--of members on the rolls who never attend worship services. But they are of course reported as members.

ToBeLoved said:

I'm sorry Jane, but there is no data so you cannot support that argument with anything, so it is opinion.

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A person becomes a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of of Latter-day Saints when they are baptized. That is when (among other things) a membership record is created.
https://www.mormon.org/faq/become-a-member.

All non-baptisized individuals are not members. You've been told this before- so why do you continually try to disseminate what you know is false information?

Jane_Doe said:

A person becomes a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of of Latter-day Saints when they are baptized. That is when (among other things) a membership record is created.
https://www.mormon.org/faq/become-a-member.

All non-baptisized individuals are not members. You've been told this before- so why do you continually try to disseminate what you know is false information?

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I'm not talking about who is 'officially' called a member of your church.

We were talking about the number of Mormons which someone said was 16 million. False, more like 4.5 million. Your church CHOOSES not to share their data. Every other religion does and are not afraid of what other people think.

ToBeLoved said:

We were talking about the number of Mormons which someone said was 16 million.

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Because there are 16 million baptized members. You then claimed that this number included even non-baptisized visitors (post #742). It does not (post 748) and you have been corrected on this before.

Now, why do you disseminate information you know is false?

tickingclocker posted:
Their "creeds are abominable"? The nature of salvation IS part of that "abominable creed" JS called "apostate". Yet Smith builds upon that "abominable apostate" foundation?? HUH??

You still haven't answered why he did this. Announcing that he built on something that he considered "apostate abominable" means he rejects it ALL. Apostate is apostate, abominable is abominable. You cannot say Christianity was "semi" apostate or "semi" abominable because it kept this faith plus works bit, just like you cannot claim someone is "semi-pregnant". It's one or the other, not only the half he chose to keep and everything else gets tossed under the bus.

Pete, that's keeping the form, but denying the power. A classic example if ever there was one. You know it. I know it.

Salvation or which camp it stems from has never been the key issue here. The issue will remain smack on subject target whether you don't like it or even choose to avoid it. JS's apostasy claim is a lie he made up to profit financially off it while feeding his enormous ego, promoting his mormonism as the "new, improved" Christianity. Which it can never be, because it is a lie.[/QUOTE]
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You say: Their "creeds are abominable"? The nature of salvation IS part of that "abominable creed" JS called "apostate". Yet Smith builds upon that "abominable apostate" foundation?? HUH??

Tell me how JS builds upon that "abominable apostate" foundation??

You say: You still haven't answered why he did this.

My answer is he didn't. If part of Jesus's salvation theology is seen in some part of mainstream Christianity, it just means that that denomination has part of the truth. Look back on my post #566 and see our salvation theology. It is not like any mainstream Christian salvation theology you can show me. So again my answer is he didn't build on any existing theology. Why should he, he had Jesus Christ telling him what was the true theology.

You say: JS's apostasy claim is a lie he made up to profit financially off it.

If you ever read his history, he could have really made off with a fortune, but he died rather poor. So if that was his goal, he did not accomplish that.
But what he did accomplish fills many books, written by his followers to show you the fruit of his labors. The very fact that we are talking about him today, over 170 years since he was murdered, is proof that his prophecy came true. The prophecy was pronounced by Moroni when he visited JS and showed him where the plates of gold were. At that time he told JS that his name would be known for good and evil all over the world. I consider him good, you consider him evil. So within the U.S.A., you have helped to fulfill that prophecy. So thanks.

You have still not responded to my challenge to let us know what your salvation theology is, and then we can compare our theologies, scripture by scripture to see how they line up with the bible. So man up and let's find out whose salvation theology is more biblical.

ToBeLoved said:

I'm not talking about who is 'officially' called a member of your church.

We were talking about the number of Mormons which someone said was 16 million. False, more like 4.5 million. Your church CHOOSES not to share their data. Every other religion does and are not afraid of what other people think.

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Go to: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/facts-and-statistics

The LDS chooses how they want to count members, just like every other church in the world. We do not count our members the way you think we should count. So go to the website and see the number and add X to it because it was a number as of 12/15/15. If you don't accept the number, it is OK.

fatboys said:

So why do you think they are just targeting non Mormon church's.

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This is bigotry--this is black churches being persecuted. Your question seems to lack understanding of what it is I am saying. I stated that this is what is meant by proving that your church is being persecuted, so I posted the known assaults on other churches, these are all black--then I found a few incidences where Mormon churches were bring targeted--very few in comparison to the black churches. Not that any of this should be going on. You're question makes no sense.

Jane_Doe said:

Because there are 16 million baptized members. You then claimed that this number included even non-baptisized visitors (post #742). It does not (post 748) and you have been corrected on this before.

Now, why do you disseminate information you know is false?

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Are you counting the dead that you baptize??

Jane_Doe said:

Because there are 16 million baptized members. You then claimed that this number included even non-baptisized visitors (post #742). It does not (post 748) and you have been corrected on this before.

Now, why do you disseminate information you know is false?

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I didn't say non baptized
I said
Visitors. You can apologize now.


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ArmenianJohn said:

The first one you say is correct, so that's not a lie. The second one you call a lie but all you show is that he says something you think is wrong. For it to be a lie you need to prove that he is intentionally speaking a falsehood to deceive. If he is saying what he sincerely believes he may still be wrong but not a liar.

So how do you determine that he is lying and can you provide proof for that? So far you absolutely have not.

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Ed Decker with his books and movies has brought more people into the Mormon church than have left the Mormon church. You want to know why? Well here it is:

Normal people know Mormon people, we are their neighbors and friends. Then they go to their church and hear this expose on Mormonism from ED. It is so utterly mind-bendingly stupid that people leave the film wondering who these monsters are living next to them. So this film actually precipitates a discussion that might not have happened otherwise. When the couple, actually under the influence of the HS, hear the truth of these things they are impressed to ask more, which many times leads to baptism. So hope his books and movies stay on the best seller list.

Peter1000 said:

Go to: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/facts-and-statistics

The LDS chooses how they want to count members, just like every other church in the world. We do not count our members the way you think we should count. So go to the website and see the number and add X to it because it was a number as of 12/15/15. If you don't accept the number, it is OK.

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I don't. I see much twisting of information.

If you don't see that. That's too bad

Now back on topic the apostasy. If it's been proven that the BOA is a fraud. Why would anyone believe your prophet? Even the photos were doctored.


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http://religiondispatches.org/mormon-numbers-not-adding-up/

Official LDS Church statistics for 2011 count 6,144,582 Mormons in the United States in 2011, comprising about 2% of the nation’s population. Church statistics also show a 30% membership increase between 1990 and 2008—a rate double general US population growth.

But recent studies tell a different story—different because whereas LDS Church records count anyone who has ever been baptized, demographers and pollsters count only those who currently identify themselves as Mormon. Those are the parameters for the landmark Trinity College American Religious Identification Survey: a two-decade project that has produced the largest and most accurate database of self-reported religious identification ever compiled, with 100,000 randomly sampled participants. According to Rick Phillips and Ryan Cragun, the authors of a study of Mormons based on ARIS data, self-identified adult Mormons make up not 2% but rather 1.4% of the adult US population—that’s about 4.4 million LDS adults.

Peter1000 said:

Ed Decker with his books and movies has brought more people into the Mormon church than have left the Mormon church. You want to know why? Well here it is:

Normal people know Mormon people, we are their neighbors and friends. Then they go to their church and hear this expose on Mormonism from ED. It is so utterly mind-bendingly stupid that people leave the film wondering who these monsters are living next to them. So this film actually precipitates a discussion that might not have happened otherwise. When the couple, actually under the influence of the HS, hear the truth of these things they are impressed to ask more, which many times leads to baptism. So hope his books and movies stay on the best seller list.

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That's not what the data shows. It shows a mass exodus starting in the 70's.


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mmksparbud said:

http://religiondispatches.org/mormon-numbers-not-adding-up/

Official LDS Church statistics for 2011 count 6,144,582 Mormons in the United States in 2011, comprising about 2% of the nation’s population. Church statistics also show a 30% membership increase between 1990 and 2008—a rate double general US population growth.

But recent studies tell a different story—different because whereas LDS Church records count anyone who has ever been baptized, demographers and pollsters count only those who currently identify themselves as Mormon. Those are the parameters for the landmark Trinity College American Religious Identification Survey: a two-decade project that has produced the largest and most accurate database of self-reported religious identification ever compiled, with 100,000 randomly sampled participants. According to Rick Phillips and Ryan Cragun, the authors of a study of Mormons based on ARIS data, self-identified adult Mormons make up not 2% but rather 1.4% of the adult US population—that’s about 4.4 million LDS adults.

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Yup. That's what I said. About 4.5 million.


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