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Joseph Prince interpretation of 1 John 1:9

splat

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1 John 1:9-10 NASB If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

The Joseph Prince intepretation of 1 John 1:9 (as I understand him) is that this scripture is not for Christians. This is a position I find hard to follow. For instance, how am I to understand from the context of this passage that these verses are not written to Christians??? Is this now a standard WoF position or just those that follow the teachings of Joseph Prince?

Do the followers of the teachings of Joseph Prince teach that there is no need for sanctification? I understand Romans 4:8, that sin is no longer imputed to us, but I've always understood that there is still a sin problem, even in believers down here on earth, for those of us who are not sinlessly perfect. God may not impute it to us, to our account, but there can still be sin in our lives. Am I wrong in this?

So if 1 John 1:9 is about sanctification, rather than justification, I see no contradiction between it and Romans 4:8. If its about justification only, as Prince appears to believe, then I see why he wants to relegate it to unbelievers only.

Whilst I have enjoyed much of Prince's teaching in many areas I really struggle with his position on 1 John 1:9. I still see a need for sanctification today. Whilst I acknowledge that its a work of the Holy Spirit I see it at least requiring our co-operation with the Spirit.
 

splat

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Rhema teaches that 1John1:9 is for believers. Is JP a Rhema graduate?

Oh, that's interesting. Do you have a citation for that?

I don't know if JP is a Rhema graduate. I've heard him mention he followed Don Gossett and I thought he used to follow Hagin's teachings but not 100% sure.
 
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gennaoanothen

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Oh, that's interesting. Do you have a citation for that?

.

a quote from Rhema web site on this topic, click the Jesus is our advocate link to see article. hope that answers your question

After verse 10, the Apostle John went on to say, “My little children . . .” (1 John 2:1). Man put the divisions between these chapters; John did not write in chapter and verse like this. Therefore, reading the four verses of our text in sequence, we can see that John was not writing to sinners; he was writing to Christians.

First John 1:9 is often quoted to sinners, telling them to confess their sins. God didn’t tell them to. It would be impossible for a sinner to confess every wrong he had ever done, because his whole life is wrong! No, this verse was written to Christians.
Jesus is Our Advocate
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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1 John 1:9-10 NASB If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

The Joseph Prince intepretation of 1 John 1:9 (as I understand him) is that this scripture is not for Christians. This is a position I find hard to follow. For instance, how am I to understand from the context of this passage that these verses are not written to Christians??? Is this now a standard WoF position or just those that follow the teachings of Joseph Prince?
Joseph Prince is a very good preacher. I have found that most of his teaching is right on target. His book 'Destined to Reign' is highly recommended.

Here is a link to his teaching on 1 John 1:9 ... What About 1 John 1:9? Understanding The Power Of Complete Forgiveness « Latest « JosephPrince.com :: Official site for Joseph Prince Resources

An audio only version of the message can be found here.

Haven't heard this from him in quite a while, thanks for bringing it up; I'll be listening to his message on this again.

But to my understanding, it isn't that the apostle is speaking to believers or non-believers so much as 1 John 1 is a reminder of where we came from. So to the believer it is a reminder that we were sinners. We are not to ever deny that. (To the unbeliever it is a proclamation that Jesus saves!!)

1 John 1 is a reminder of where we came from. 1 John 3 is a statement about where we are: (1 Jn 3:9 -- if you are born of God you cannot sin -- in other words, He doesn't see it because of Jesus' Blood).

Do the followers of the teachings of Joseph Prince teach that there is no need for sanctification?
Sanctification is a process that God is taking you through. It is not up to you to achieve it. You do not achieve sanctification by your continued repentance; you are being sanctified because God is bringing you into full righteousness.

I understand Romans 4:8, that sin is no longer imputed to us, but I've always understood that there is still a sin problem, even in believers down here on earth, for those of us who are not sinlessly perfect. God may not impute it to us, to our account, but there can still be sin in our lives. Am I wrong in this?
You are not wrong. But if God is not imputing it to us, then it is not salvific. It affects you here on earth -- it moves you from the blessing into the curse. This will affect your body and your mind.
 
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splat

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Sanctification is a process that God is taking you through. It is not up to you to achieve it. You do not achieve sanctification by your continued repentance; you are being sanctified because God is bringing you into full righteousness.

Well, thats where I become confused. Are we talking about imputed righteousness there or "actual" righteousness? Also, I thought repentance was primarily a change of mind, not about sorrow or regret, though it may involve those things as well. I have heard the saying "The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results." I understand its a work of the Holy Spirit but I don't get how you can have sanctification without repentance. I'm not saying I consider this verse to be salvific. I don't. However, I do see in that verse a key to spiritual effectiveness. When I heard J. Prince preach on it I was dismayed to hear that he was taking that spiritual key away from me. But I was in no way seeing it as salvific. I'm not Catholic and I'm not a believer in last rites.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Well, thats where I become confused. Are we talking about imputed righteousness there or "actual" righteousness?
You do not have "actual righteousness" while here on earth.
Philippians 3:7-9
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
The only way you can attempt to have your own righteousness is to live under the Law and to keep it perfectly without fail. We cannot do that. So our righteousness comes from God by faith in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
We are the righteousness of God in Christ. It is imputed to us because of what Jesus did for us. We are still of a carnal nature, but washed in Jesus blood. It is all Him and none of us. From this we then go on to know who we are in Christ -- and there we leave the carnal man behind and become a new creation, a new man that battles the old, becoming sanctified through Him.

Also, I thought repentance was primarily a change of mind, not about sorrow or regret, though it may involve those things as well. I have heard the saying "The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect different results." I understand its a work of the Holy Spirit but I don't get how you can have sanctification without repentance.
Repentance is not just a change of mind, but a change to move away from sin and toward Father God. When you say "sanctification without repentance" what do you mean? If you are talking about our daily repenting of our misturns, and focusing back on God, then you have never left the sanctification process. God is still dealing with you. When you repent as an unsaved sinner and turn to God, He justifies you. He forgives you. And He begins the sanctification process. You are now under Grace and not Law; Your daily repentance is part of the process of sanctification: He is changing you; you are responding to that change. It is no longer a salvific issue, for you are saved.

I'm not saying I consider this verse to be salvific. I don't. However, I do see in that verse a key to spiritual effectiveness. When I heard J. Prince preach on it I was dismayed to hear that he was taking that spiritual key away from me. But I was in no way seeing it as salvific. I'm not Catholic and I'm not a believer in last rites.
Why do you see spiritual effectiveness being taken away. Paster Prince teaches on Grace, which is the utmost in spiritual effectiveness -- as it diminishes (and eliminates) self and the Law.
 
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splat

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You do not have "actual righteousness" while here on earth.
Huh? Then why are we told to seek it?

(1 Timothy 6:11 NASB) But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.

(2 Timothy 2:22 NASB) Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.


Repentance is not just a change of mind, but a change to move away from sin and toward Father God. When you say "sanctification without repentance" what do you mean? If you are talking about our daily repenting of our misturns, and focusing back on God, then you have never left the sanctification process. God is still dealing with you. When you repent as an unsaved sinner and turn to God, He justifies you. He forgives you. And He begins the sanctification process. You are now under Grace and not Law; Your daily repentance is part of the process of sanctification: He is changing you; you are responding to that change. It is no longer a salvific issue, for you are saved.


Why do you see spiritual effectiveness being taken away. Paster Prince teaches on Grace, which is the utmost in spiritual effectiveness -- as it diminishes (and eliminates) self and the Law.

OK, we are a little bit cross purposes here. When I think of repentance I am not thinking of repentance from sin. I realize thats how the church uses it however I'm not sure thats how the bible uses it. I'm still on the trail of that one. However, if my suspicions are right, then repentance is a change of mind, and as you say, a turning to God (or to God's perspective which is grace), so repentance, as I understand it, is not turning from sin, but from false doctrine or teaching. That makes sense to me when Jesus said to his disciples to beware of the leaven of the pharisees (false teaching).

What I am saying is I don't see how spiritual growth is possible without letting go of some of our old beliefs when the Lord shows us that they are not true even if orthodoxy has a contrary view. A true change has to be of the heart, not just behaviour modification.

If Joseph Prince is saying that there is no longer a need for conscious (cooperation on our part) sanctification (not self improvement sanctification) based on his interpretation of 1 John 1:9 then it seems to me that he is cutting of the road to repentance. (If it is "already done" then why do we need to seek change, "it must be all up to God" kind of thinking which is similar to Calvinism, which is generally the direct opposite of WoF teaching.)

You are probably wondering why i care about the "road to repentance" if its not salvific. Well, its about spiritual effectiveness, about being able to operate in faith down here on earth. If faith and sin are opposites (anything thats not of faith is sin) then it behooves us to still seek righteousness (even though sin is no longer imputed Romans 4:8) so that we may become vessels useful to the master down here on earth. This has nothing to do with our salvation but everything to do with spiritual effectiveness.

2 Timothy 2:20-21 NASB Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. (21) Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.


I imagine you totally disagree with my comments here but I'm not so close minded that I'm not willing to listen to reason. If I am wrong in my thinking I wish to know it. At least now, hopefully, you have a better understanding of why I struggle with Princes interpretation of 1 John 1:9.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Huh? Then why are we told to seek it?

(1 Timothy 6:11 NASB) But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.

(2 Timothy 2:22 NASB) Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.
Because it is a worthy goal. Show me the verse that tells you when you will achieve your own righteousness.

I can show you this in the mean time:
Romans 3:9-12
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[
You simply do not have the nature for your own righteousness. Righteousness is imputed to you through Jesus. You are the righteousness of God through Jesus. Not of yourself, but because of what Jesus' sacrifice does for you.

OK, we are a little bit cross purposes here. When I think of repentance I am not thinking of repentance from sin. I realize thats how the church uses it however I'm not sure thats how the bible uses it. I'm still on the trail of that one. However, if my suspicions are right, then repentance is a change of mind, and as you say, a turning to God (or to God's perspective which is grace), so repentance, as I understand it, is not turning from sin, but from false doctrine or teaching. That makes sense to me when Jesus said to his disciples to beware of the leaven of the pharisees (false teaching).
You've got a good definition so far, but false doctrine/teaching can still be sin. If it leads one away from God, it is sin.
Romans 14:23b
for whatever is not from faith is sin.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. False doctrine and teaching is not from the Word, therefore not from faith -- and therefore is sin.

But your definition is lacking if you do not include "turn from sin" as part of repentence. This is why the Bible speaks of "repenting from your sin."
2 Corinthians 12:21
my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

Acts 3:19
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out
If Joseph Prince is saying that there is no longer a need for conscious (cooperation on our part) sanctification (not self improvement sanctification) based on his interpretation of 1 John 1:9 then it seems to me that he is cutting of the road to repentance. (If it is "already done" then why do we need to seek change, "it must be all up to God" kind of thinking which is similar to Calvinism, which is generally the direct opposite of WoF teaching.)
God gave us Calvin to show us what wrong teaching is. I'M KIDDING!!! Just kidding!!! KIDDING!!!!!! Really, though, the truth that your repentence is done is in the biblical truth that God has sealed you with the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13; 4:30); the Holy Spirit is your guarantee until your redemption is complete (2 Cor 1:22; 5:5; Eph 1:14).
Daily repentance is for you and your continued sanctification. It is for you to reach forward, to grow, to learn, to stay on the right track so that God's blessing will be full in your life. When we sin, we enter the curse; in the curse there is sickness and poverty and disease. If we repent, we stay in the blessing God has for us and we achieve true prosperity: health, wealth, redeemed time, joy, peace.... true shalom!!

You are probably wondering why i care about the "road to repentance" if its not salvific. Well, its about spiritual effectiveness, about being able to operate in faith down here on earth. If faith and sin are opposites (anything thats not of faith is sin) then it behooves us to still seek righteousness (even though sin is no longer imputed Romans 4:8) so that we may become vessels useful to the master down here on earth. This has nothing to do with our salvation but everything to do with spiritual effectiveness.
Absolutely!! 100% right on!

(Perhaps: do not confuse "being righteous" with either "seeking righteousness" or being called the "righteous of God." God speaks of His children as "the righteous" -- because He views us through our salvation (through Jesus' blood -- even the OT saved saints). But we are not -- and the Bible is clear about this -- of ourselves, righteous. "There is none righteous, no, not one" [Rom 3:10]. )

I imagine you totally disagree with my comments here but I'm not so close minded that I'm not willing to listen to reason. If I am wrong in my thinking I wish to know it. At least now, hopefully, you have a better understanding of why I struggle with Princes interpretation of 1 John 1:9.
Honestly, I don't know why you are having a problem with his teaching. I'm listening to it today and I don't see the issue from what you just said in the last paragraph that I totally agreed with. Prince preaches Grace apart from Law. He preaches God's goodness and God's fullness of blessing. He teaches how to walk in the blessing and to stay out of the curse. You may do well (if you haven't yet) to buy his book "Destined to Reign." It is a marvelous teaching on the Gospel of Grace.
 
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Alive_Again

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1 John 1:9-10 NASB If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
The sinner (by nature) can only repent by turning to the Lord, and believing that the sacrifice on the cross was enough to satisfy the judgment of God. He is first convicted by the Holy Spirit as a sinner. He cannot confess his sins, just that he is a sinner.

The believer confesses our sins (as we are convicted) and repents. He is cleansed by the blood.

The "IF" is always attached to the repentance for the cleansing.

If you believe that you are always cleansed (undefiled, unspotted) just because you are a believer, then this would seem like a verse for unbelievers, because you would have to acknowledge that you needed cleansing.
The Joseph Prince intepretation of 1 John 1:9 (as I understand him) is that this scripture is not for Christians. This is a position I find hard to follow. For instance, how am I to understand from the context of this passage that these verses are not written to Christians??? Is this now a standard WoF position or just those that follow the teachings of Joseph Prince?
I have not heard too much of J. Prince, and I hope that he is not convinced that this is so. The Word shows that "our" righteousness is filthy rags. They are not wedding garments. Our wedding garments of righteousness are given to us when we repent and believe. If we walk in the light, we are cleansed by the blood. They can become spotted or wrinkled or "defiled". Jesus speaks to the churches in the Book of Revelation and their are mostly letters telling the church to repent. Jesus is calling sinners to repentance, not the righteous. It clearly mentions a lack of defilement as being those who are worthy to walk with him.

Those cleansed by the blood have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. The Word says that you can be blotted out of this book.

We can become spotted by the things of the world. Here is our true religion in staying unspotted. But if we sin, we can repent and become cleansed again.

If we're striving to please God in this world and making mistakes daily, then we're not really thinking about losing our salvation. Our salvation is in His mercy, and we're pressing in as the recipients. God is not looking for a reason to disqualify us. He is looking for those who fulfill the law in our hearts (with all of our hearts). This is abiding in His righeousness. The penalty for those who reject Him is death and (I believe) to the end, He is looking for the lost sheep to repent (if they don't continue to reject Him).

At this very moment, their are no doubt 1,000s of people going off to Hell right now. These will have rejected Him. Seek the Lord while He may be found. Call upon Him while He is near. We mustn't become complacent that all is taken care of because it is the nature of sheep to wander off if they become too far removed from the voice of the shepherd.
 
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splat

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You do not have "actual righteousness" while here on earth.
Philippians 3:7-9
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
The only way you can attempt to have your own righteousness is to live under the Law and to keep it perfectly without fail. We cannot do that. So our righteousness comes from God by faith in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
We are the righteousness of God in Christ. It is imputed to us because of what Jesus did for us. We are still of a carnal nature, but washed in Jesus blood. It is all Him and none of us. From this we then go on to know who we are in Christ -- and there we leave the carnal man behind and become a new creation, a new man that battles the old, becoming sanctified through Him.

OK, It feels like you're mixing up imputed righteousness and sanctification. I believe the Holy Spirit leads us out of sin and doesn't just leave us there. Are you of the some belief? This might be our terminology mixup. I am calling this "actual" righteousness. It may not be yours or my righteousness, or not of our making, but its more than just imputed. Hope that helps clear this up.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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OK, It feels like you're mixing up imputed righteousness and sanctification. I believe the Holy Spirit leads us out of sin and doesn't just leave us there. Are you of the some belief? This might be our terminology mixup. I am calling this "actual" righteousness. It may not be yours or my righteousness, or not of our making, but its more than just imputed. Hope that helps clear this up.

What do you mean by "leads us out of sin?" When Jesus died for us He did more than "lead us out" He cleansed us of all sin. So what exactly do you say the Holy Spirit is leading us out of?

You are right when you say righteousness is not of our making (or even our earning). But the only righteousness we have this side of Heaven is imputed. Our carnal nature (our old man) keeps us from being truly (or actually) righteous.

Imputed righteousness is what God imputed to us when we accepted Jesus' free gift. It is complete and perfect. It is how God sees us through Jesus blood. It is the only way we are seen as acceptable to God.

Sanctification is a process. This process is in a sense a teaching process as God moves us into being a more holy person. It is not by your works, but your works shall follow as God sanctifies you. Full sanctification will occur when Jesus comes back for His church.
 
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Alive_Again

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But the only righteousness we have this side of Heaven is imputed. Our carnal nature (our old man) keeps us from being truly (or actually) righteous.

The divine nature living within our spirit is righteous. There is not death in it. By virtue of our regeneration are we able to fulfill the righteousness of the Law by fulfilling that spirit of that same Law.

Imputed righteousness is what God imputed to us when we accepted Jesus' free gift. It is complete and perfect. It is how God sees us through Jesus blood. It is the only way we are seen as acceptable to God.

The imputation is for the repentant who dares to believe in the work of the cross. Righteousness is not imputed for the unrepentant sinner. (The sinner being the one who sins, not just the unborn again person). Example, the stouthearted is far from His righteousness. Anyone can be stouthearted and any believer can work unrighteousness. The wrath of man does not fulfill God's righteousness. We are to lay down the works of the unrighteous flesh and awake to righteousness. Put it on. It's what you walk in that will determine the state of your garments. You can have the robe of righteousness and it can become spotted or wrinkled. That is not righteous and God will not accept it.

God expects us to work righteousness. It can only be done by grace. You have to have the readiness first (it becomes imputed to you), and then God receives you. You have the grace to actually walk in it.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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The divine nature living within our spirit is righteous. There is not death in it. By virtue of our regeneration are we able to fulfill the righteousness of the Law by fulfilling that spirit of that same Law.
Just out of curiosity: if my carnal self sins, does that remove the righteousness from my spirit?

The imputation is for the repentant who dares to believe in the work of the cross. Righteousness is not imputed for the unrepentant sinner. (The sinner being the one who sins, not just the unborn again person).
Well, that answers my first question. So can you show me in scripture where God says that He will un-impute righteousness -- all the verses you have quoted to date have nothing to say about un-imputing.

God expects us to work righteousness. It can only be done by grace. You have to have the readiness first (it becomes imputed to you), and then God receives you. You have the grace to actually walk in it.
What, in your theology, does this "work righteousness" get you? Saved? Continued salvation? I'm truly trying to understand how salvation comes to us not of our own works, but lost condition can, by our own works, undo what God has done:
Titus 3:3-7
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.

-- we were once sinners

4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,

-- but God loved the unlovable

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

-- not because we worked righteousness, not because of what we have done, but fully and only by His Mercy

6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

-- He poured out, abundantly, upon sinners, upon the unrighteous, upon those who didn't deserve it, upon those who sinned daily, upon those who could do no good; and He did it before we ever made any move toward repentance or doing right -- He made the offer and called us to repent

7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

-- we are justified by His Grace! not by our works of righteousness. And once we are saved, we are STILL justified by His Grace and not by our works of righteousness
It is about His Mercy and Grace. Your works are never about obtaining salvation -- that is a gift that once accepted is yours forever.

We see two verses, don't we:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;
When my old man sins in any given day, I still believe in Him. He is still my Lord. I have not changed my acceptance of His gift. I am not condemned (or scripture lies!).
 
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Alive_Again

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The imputation is for the repentant who dares to believe in the work of the cross. Righteousness is not imputed for the unrepentant sinner. (The sinner being the one who sins, not just the unborn again person).

Well, that answers my first question. So can you show me in scripture where God says that He will un-impute righteousness -- all the verses you have quoted to date have nothing to say about un-imputing.

That word is obviously not in the Bible. The doctrine of righteousness as far as receiving it as a gift and walking in it is throughout scripture. Righteousness involves giving heed to what God says. In the case of the believer, he must receive Jesus as Lord (doing what He says, or at least having a readiness to do so) and believing what He has said. You know what to do. Jesus equates obedience with loving Him. Righteousness or right standing is a condition when the repentant covenant believer enters into and then abides in that covenant. It is a conditional agreement whereby both parties give each other's all. It can be broken and if it is, that right standing is broken.

What, in your theology, does this "work righteousness" get you? Saved? Continued salvation? I'm truly trying to understand how salvation comes to us not of our own works, but lost condition can, by our own works, undo what God has done:

Doing what He says to your heart is working righteousness. It's the same when you get "saved". You repent and believe. That's step one. It's not our own works, it's the work of grace from the rest of fiath.

5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

The "we" here is ourselves. Our own ability. We enter into grace (His righteousness). God sees Jesus as we are His body. We are one. That unity comes with a price. Your submission to His Lordship. Granted, we're all learning and making mistakes and our covenant includes correction and we must respond to that correction.

-- not because we worked righteousness, not because of what we have done, but fully and only by His Mercy

7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

-- we are justified by His Grace! not by our works of righteousness. And once we are saved, we are STILL justified by His Grace and not by our works of righteousness

This is the thing about OSAS people. The "works of righteousness" are thought to be our own dead works. They are not! The are His works in us. The first works are to repent and believe.
It is about His Mercy and Grace. Your works are never about obtaining salvation -- that is a gift that once accepted is yours forever.

You're not "obtaining" salvation. You already obtained it. You must walk according to your righteous nature in your spirit. You really can go outside of that in your flesh. Those works are unrighteous. You can break the covenant and be removed from His righteousness. Repentance restores the breach of covenant.
John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned;

If you believe in Him, you believe what He says. He said that workers of iniquity will depart from Him. That's pretty up front!
 
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Alive_Again

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For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.
Psalms 11:7 (KJV)

Those who do not walk uprightly are unrighteous.

Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
Psalms 15:1-2 (KJV)

That's pretty clear in any covenant.


The Lord rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath he recompensed me.
Psalms 18:20 (KJV)

It's about being clean and we become clean by the blood of Jesus and we stay cleansed by walking in the light.

Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness:
therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Psalms 45:7 (KJV)

It's a contrast and we're capable of either one.


But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children; To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.
Psalms 103:17-18 (KJV)

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
Psalms 106:3 (KJV)

The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness.
Prov 11:5 (KJV)

Again, we can wear either hat.


As righteousness tendeth to life: so he that pursueth evil pursueth it to his own death.
Prov 11:19 (KJV)

Each bears a fruit that indicates your soundness.


Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
Isaiah 46:12 (KJV)

Ever been stouhearted since you've been 'saved'?


O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments!
then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
Isaiah 48:18 (KJV)

Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
Isaiah 51:7 (KJV)

He's talking about the obedient. The transgressor should fear for wrongdoing.

The wicked are those who do wickedness.


But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Ezek 18:21-22 (KJV)

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
Ezek 18:24 (KJV)

I don't see how you work around this. Even though we are under the New Covenant, the nature of God does not change.

When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness,
and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Ezek 18:26 (KJV)

But seek ye first
the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Matt 6:33 (KJV)

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 3:25 (KJV)

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 6:16 (KJV)

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Romans 6:20 (KJV)

It's the same now even though we are Christians.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

Why do we need instruction?

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:20-24 (KJV)

It's a fulfillment of righteousness.

And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Matt 3:15 (KJV)

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:7 (KJV)

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John 3:10 (KJV)

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
Psalms 106:3 (KJV)
 
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splat

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What do you mean by "leads us out of sin?" When Jesus died for us He did more than "lead us out" He cleansed us of all sin. So what exactly do you say the Holy Spirit is leading us out of?

Ok, the best biblical example I can think of is when the Lord led the children of Israel out of Egypt. He didn't just say to them "I see you as free". He did something tangible about it. He delivered them from captivity.

In the same way, if someone is addicted to sin, lets say, for simplicity, drugs, can Jesus set them free from that? Do we say to the drug addict, Jesus can set you free from that in the resurrection? Do we say to drug addict that Jesus has imputed freedom to you? Or do we stand with the drug addict in faith for them to be set free from drugs?

This is the reason why I'm concerned about the 1John 1:9 message and why the Prince interpretation feels "watered down" to me.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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That word is obviously not in the Bible.
There's probably a good reason for that.

The doctrine of righteousness as far as receiving it as a gift and walking in it is throughout scripture.
Yes, it is. And it has nothing to do with your works and everything to do with His Grace.

Righteousness involves giving heed to what God says. In the case of the believer, he must receive Jesus as Lord (doing what He says, or at least having a readiness to do so) and believing what He has said. You know what to do. Jesus equates obedience with loving Him. Righteousness or right standing is a condition when the repentant covenant believer enters into and then abides in that covenant. It is a conditional agreement whereby both parties give each other's all. It can be broken and if it is, that right standing is broken.
Righteousness is not conditional. It is not an agreement. It is imputed to you by God through Jesus Christ. You don't earn it, you don't work for it, you don't keep it. It is God's view of you as being in right standing, or being holy, and is ONLY granted you through the Blood of the Lamb.

Righteousness is directly connected to your salvation: saved men are imputed righteousness; unsaved men are not seen as righteous. Whether you believe in OSAS or lost salvation this definition remains the same.

Your words are walking dangerously close to a salvation by works message (which most 'lost salvation' advocates do not preach). And the apostle warned us strongly against those who preach salvation by works.

Doing what He says to your heart is working righteousness. It's the same when you get "saved". You repent and believe. That's step one. It's not our own works, it's the work of grace from the rest of fiath.
That didn't answer the question you quoted.

The "we" here is ourselves. Our own ability. We enter into grace (His righteousness). God sees Jesus as we are His body. We are one. That unity comes with a price. Your submission to His Lordship. Granted, we're all learning and making mistakes and our covenant includes correction and we must respond to that correction.
God understands who we are. He is sanctifying us; we don't sanctify ourselves. We do obey His principles and commandments.

You're not "obtaining" salvation.
This is true; works can not obtain salvation.

You already obtained it.
Not by any works you have done.

You must walk according to your righteous nature in your spirit.
Yes.

You really can go outside of that in your flesh. Those works are unrighteous.
Yes and yes.

You can break the covenant and be removed from His righteousness.
No you can't.

Repentance restores the breach of covenant.
Repentance for the believer puts him back in the will of God for his life. It is necessary for us to "run the race which is set before us." Without this repentance we are walking in the curse of the world and not in God's full blessing. The New Covenant was not cut by man and God, it was cut by Jesus on the cross. His was the only blood shed for this covenant, shed for us, in our place, to impute righteousness upon us. Once we accept the GIFT we are covered by the Blood and this covenant cannot be breached.[/quote]

If you believe in Him, you believe what He says. He said that workers of iniquity will depart from Him. That's pretty up front!
I dislike bringing up this teaching in a discussion about 'lost salvation,' for it can be carried away in the wrong context by those predisposed to the 'lost salvation message. But, the Lord is nudging me, so:
Hebrews 6:1-6
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
If you are right, AA, then verse 6 says that one you fall from righteousness you are done. "(4) For it is impossible...(6) if you fall away, to renew yourself again to repentance." If you fall, you are lost. Some teach this is the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit (but the context Jesus uses to describe the blaspheme is clear, and it isn't this).

Others attempt to twist this and say that "simple" sin, or backsliding, is not the end and you can repent; but this set of verses must be talking about some bigger renouncing of the faith. Sorry, but this verse does not make such a distinction. It simply says that if you were "once enlightened" and you fall away (ie: your not enlighted any longer, or not saved) then you are lost forever, for it is imposssible to renew repentance.

But to the hopeful, we can see that this is not what Paul is saying. In verse 1 he is saying that it is time to stop worrying about the elemetary principles -- quit bickering over the fundamental aspects of your faith and salvation -- "not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (repenting each time you sin -- and also of baptisms, laying on hands, etc.) Quit bickering about this, because if you were to sin such that you could be lost and in need of repentance (which can't be done!!) you would have crucified Christ again, and this will never happen; Paul says clearly that it would be "impossible [for them]...[if] once enlightened...[to] fall away...[then] to renew them again to repentance."

If you could lose your salvation and you fall away...you are lost.

I praise God that it is not possible, for he has sealed me with the Holy Spirit and given Him to me as a guarantee of my redemption.
 
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