John 6 and Real Presence

[Canadian75]

I understand that you do not believe in 'real presence' in the eucharist. I heard explanations about the Gospel accounts when Jesus says "this is my body" and often it is explained that the "is" is symbolic and not literal. But what about the following verses which are often used to support 'real presence':

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

I'd appreciate anyone who can explain another interpretation for this verse. If this topic has come up often I apologize, but I'm just curious (like usual) and not looking to argue.

Peace.

 

[Matthan]

Read and study verse 63 where Jesus explains what it was He spoke of. His disciples then understood. Will you?

Matthan <J><

 

[ZiSunka]

It's called a metaphor and Jesus often used them in explaining difficult concepts to people.

They were offended because they didn't understand what he was saying. To them, it seemed like he was proposing that they take up cannibalism, and they knew cannibalism is wrong. So they asked each other, "what is he proposing, that we eat his flesh?" They thought he was being literal. They thought that he was going to allow himself to be killed and cooked and that would be very offensive to everyone, even now!

Then Jesus said something shocking, (which he often did), saying, "yes you heard me right. Unless you come to the realization that you must take me to heart, you can have no part of eternal life."

The verses before this one are important to the understanding of this. Jesus is likening himself to the manna that came down out of heaven, and whoever ate of that supernatural food didn't gain eternal life. But those who eat of Christ's supernatural food, spiritual food instead of literal food, gains eternal life. He's saying that even supernatural food doesn't keep us from perishing, which it seems to me would include any belief in the "real presence."

He is foreshadowing the symbols of communion when he says his flesh is bread and his blood is wine. Of course he wasn't made of literal bread and wine, was he? This is a metaphor. He was saying that his teachings, his identity, has to be taken internally, to heart, we have to take Christ in so that he can abide in us. "Salvation that comes from trusting Christ...10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved." Romans 10:8-10

Without taking Christ internally, into our hearts (meaning the core of our being, not our literal hearts), we cannot have eternal life. We can't wear him or look at him, we have to let him in to be assimilated into our lives to nourish us spiritually as food is assimilated in our bodies to nourish us physically. Any baby who never eats does not live because they don't have the nourishment they need to keep their bodies alive. Any person who does not taken Jesus into themselves will not have a spiritual life because he is what we need to have an eternal life. "For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9

But the one thing I know for sure is that Jesus is not really made of bread and wine, so he had to be speaking metaphorically. He is telling us that we must accept and assimilate him. "For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved." Taking communion is one way of confessing with your mouth that you are saved.

"Does this offend you? 62 Then what will you think if you see me, the Son of Man, return to heaven again? 63 It is the Spirit who gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But some of you don't believe me." John 6:61-64

It was offensive to them that they were not going to get salvation by doing external things, but by accepting and assimilating Christ, which is much, much harder than doing and working or performing rituals, which is what they hoped would get them there. But it's the Spirit who gives live, not the effort of their own works. The Spirit dwells inside us! We must be filled with Him! Not by what we eat, but by Who we have accepted and assimilated.

Other food metaphors refering to the indwelling of the Spirit? Luke 11:11 "You fathers – if your children ask for a fish, do you give them a snake instead? 12 Or if they ask for an egg, do you give them a scorpion? Of course not! 13 If you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him." Here again his is linking the internalization of the Spirit to food. And remember that food is love and that's why He uses the metaphor.

 

[Canadian75]

It is interesting to look at things differently. I grew up in churches that believed in some form of real presence. I kinda took it for granted. Never really challenged the belief before. I look forward to any further comments.

 

[Matthan]

Looking at the Chapter, it is clear what Jesus preached to the multitudes. In the first part Jesus feeds the 5,000. Some of those who were fed realized who He was, and wanted to seize Him to make Him their king. This was not in His Father's plan, so He slipped away. Then, He walked on water. And, immediately after He was in the ship He cause another miracle and they were at land. WOW!!

John 6:24. When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. (They wanted more free bread. He tells them so in v.26, then begins His sermon

27. Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. (Here He is talking spiritually or metaphorically. He is telling them to labor (spiritually) for God if they want to receive eternal life.)

28. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29. Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (Here Jesus gives them the entire essence of Christianity, the exact same message He gave four different times in Chapter 3, and many other times elsewhere. God wants us to believe in Jesus, the Son that God has sent to live among men. That's the entire message, straight from Jesus' lips. Nothing else is required of us. Our work is to believe in Him alone!)

30. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31. Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. (The day before they witnessed an unbelievable miracle, with five loaves feeding 5,000, and here they want still another miracle.)

32. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. (Jesus makes sure they understand that it was God, and not Moses, who gave them the life-sustaining manna to their their ancestors as they wandered in the desert. He also metaphorically (spiritually) begins His important point with a "double" meaning, that God has (again) given them the true bread from Heaven (Himself).)

33. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (Is Jesus saying that he is made of bread, and not flesh? No. He is speaking metaphorically (spiritually), telling them that He is the Christ of God. But they do not understand what he is really telling them.)

34. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (So they, thinking actual food, ask Him for that bread. And He again tells them metaphorically (spiritually) He is that (spiritual) bread of (eternal) life. He is NOT telling them that He is made of bread.)

36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. 37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jesus once again tells them God's (spiritual) truth, but they do not believe in Him. And, Jesus also once again gives them the essence of Christianity with, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." Belief, belief, belief! Over and over again Jesus tells us that we need to believe in Him, and nothing else, to receive God's grace. And yet so many people do not believe this simple message, just like the Jews who were looking for more food in these verses and failed to understand His more important message of eternal life.)

41. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. (Is Jesus calling Himself real "bread", or is He speaking metaphorically (spiritually)?

42. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43. Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (The proof was right in front of them, speaking to them, and doing miracles, and they chose not to believe what they saw and heard. So, Jesus gives them another important lesson in verses 44 to 48.)

44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48. I am that bread of life. (Pay particular attention to v. 47 and 48. Once again it is the essence of Christianity. Believe in Jesus and we have everlasting life. Why? Because Jesus is that (spiritual) bread of (eternal) life. Or, do you think Jesus is actually saying He is made of bread?)

49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (Do you think Jesus is telling them He is bread? Or is this metaphorical (spiritual) language? Do you think that, when Jesus says, "if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever:", He is saying that anyone that eats of His real flesh will receive eternal life? Or, is He saying metaphorically (spiritually) that anyone who believes in Him will live eternally, the exact same message He has given so often?)

52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (They still did not understand what He was saying.)

53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. (Here is His strongest metaphorical (spiritual) language yet. Do you think He is saying to eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to receive eternal life? Or, do you think He is talking spiritually, telling these Jews that they must believe in Him in order to receive eternal life? Do you really believe that actually eating His flesh and drinking His blood will result in receiving God's grace to eternal life? You have to believe that if you also believe Jesus is telling us to eat His real flesh, because that is the literal meaning in v. 56. And that means His death on the cross meant nothing! Or, is this is all metaphorical (spiritual) speech from Jesus?)

57. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. 59. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? (Here is more metaphorical (spiritual) words. Or, do you believe that, when Jesus says, "he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever," He is talking about actually eating Him? If you do believe that, then you have another serious problem. He is here telling us that He is bread, not meat. So, when your transsubstantiation turns the bread into flesh, it should really be bread. That is the literal meaning, isn't it? Or, is Jesus speaking metaphorically (spiritually)?)

61. When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? (Jesus knew that even His own diciples were confused on this sermon, that spoke of cannabalism. So, in the next verse, He explains what He really meant.)

63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (He tells them, "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit". Spirit! Spiritual! He tells them He is sspeaking spiritually (metaphorically). He did not mean for anyone to literally eat His flesh, but to eat of Him "Spiritually".

You can believe what you want concerning the lesson Jesus gave to us in chapter 6. His truth speaks for itself.

Matthan <J><

 

[Lockheed]

When Jesus said, "I AM the vine...", did He intend to mean He was really a plant?

 

[rural_preacher]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Matthan again.

Great Post Matthan.


--

 

[SumTinWong]

I am the door, I am the gate...

great post Matthan

 

[Gwenyfur]

Great Post Matthan.


--

repped him for ya! Great post!

 

[ZiSunka]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Matthan again.

​

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Lockheed again.
​

 

[Matthan]

Thank you all for your kind thoughts. I really, really do appreciate all of them.

I am still waiting for Canadian75 to post a reply and tell me (us?) where the fault or error lies in what I posted.

Matthan <J><

 

[Canadian75]

Thank you all for your kind thoughts. I really, really do appreciate all of them.

I am still waiting for Canadian75 to post a reply and tell me (us?) where the fault or error lies in what I posted. Do you think he can?

Matthan <J><

I wasn't looking to challenge your beliefs or to look for fault. I just couldn't find much information on this subject on the internet because a great deal of churches believe in real presence in one form or another. I decided to re-examine the issue since it is one I always took for granted. If you were looking for a furious debate, I'm sorry to dissapoint you. I think you have posted quite a good response and it is taking me time to digest the information and think about it. I'm on a fact finding mission, not a "you guys are crazy to believe this..." mission.
Though I do have a follow up question. It appears that real presence in one form or another was common practice for most of christian history, I'm wondering if anyone can point me to a good internet article that might show if any of the church fathers didn't believe in real presence?

 

[ZiSunka]

Actually there was furious debate by the early fathers before and around Augustine's time about whether or not it was really the body and blood of Christ or just bread and wine. Finally it was decided that it was the "real presence" and those who disagreed were either censured or kept their opinion to themselves. Several bishops who were previously leading theologians fell out of favor with the church because they publically disagreed with the decision.

Augustine himself felt the elements were symbolic only, but the church now interprets his statements in a different way. In fact, some translations of his "Confessions" leave out altogether his statements regarding the communion being symbolic only.

 

[Iollain]

41. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. (Is Jesus calling Himself real "bread", or is He speaking metaphorically (spiritually)?
Matthan <J><

Here is what i believe, the bread and wine that we share at the Lord's Table, is Jesus's body and blood, but it is a spiritual thing, not an actual. As in when someone toasts the bride and groom at a wedding, we raise the cup and have a sip when someone says a toast, because we are agreeing with it, not because it is some magical spell. Like if i am at my high school crushes wedding, i'm a little jealous lets say. Someone says a toast and i cannot bare to get that class to my mouth because of my feelings. Or if the father of the bride does not really like the idea of his daughter marrying this fellow so maybe he has a few too many wine and when a toast is made to the bride and groom he throws his glass in the corner just before he says what he thinks of the whole thing. Though that glass thrown has no magical power, it is still saying a lot in what he did.

Sooo, my point is, when we are having the bread and the wine at the Lord's Table, we are doing it in rememberance of the Body that was sacraficed and the blood that was shed. Also it is a time to ask God to reveal any sin in our life that we should turn from. Like if i am working at an office and am flirting with a man there, God brings up this sin to me and i ask for forgiveness and agree i will turn from this sin, i do partake in the Lord's Table, remembering what Jesus attained on the cross for me. Now the next month (or however long) that the church is having the Lord's Table, i realize that i've tried to turn from my sin, but i cannot agree that i have fully, so this month i will let the cup and bread pass by for fear of drinking condemnation onto myself.

So i would say spiritually, we do partake in the Lord's body and blood.

Do my ramblings make any sence at all?

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Here is what i believe, the bread and wine that we share at the Lord's Table, is Jesus's body and blood, but it is a spiritual thing, not an actual. As in when someone toasts the bride and groom at a wedding, we raise the cup and have a sip when someone says a toast, because we are agreeing with it, not because it is some magical spell. Like if i am at my high school crushes wedding, i'm a little jealous lets say. Someone says a toast and i cannot bare to get that class to my mouth because of my feelings. Or if the father of the bride does not really like the idea of his daughter marrying this fellow so maybe he has a few too many wine and when a toast is made to the bride and groom he throws his glass in the corner just before he says what he thinks of the whole thing. Though that glass thrown has no magical power, it is still saying a lot in what he did.

Sooo, my point is, when we are having the bread and the wine at the Lord's Table, we are doing it in rememberance of the Body that was sacraficed and the blood that was shed. Also it is a time to ask God to reveal any sin in our life that we should turn from. Like if i am working at an office and am flirting with a man there, God brings up this sin to me and i ask for forgiveness and agree i will turn from this sin, i do partake in the Lord's Table, remembering what Jesus attained on the cross for me. Now the next month (or however long) that the church is having the Lord's Table, i realize that i've tried to turn from my sin, but i cannot agree that i have fully, so this month i will let the cup and bread pass by for fear of drinking condemnation onto myself.

So i would say spiritually, we do partake in the Lord's body and blood.

Do my ramblings make any sence at all?

I think that is very much the Calvinist/Reformed point of view. Also, excellent work to all who took the time to really put Christ's words into context when He says, "This is my body."

 

[GreenEyedLady]

When Jesus said, "I AM the vine...", did He intend to mean He was really a plant?

ROTFL!!!!!!!
That was so funny! You made a funny Lockheed. Welcome to our board. I like your sense of humor!
GEL

 

[Lockheed]

ROTFL!!!!!!!
That was so funny! You made a funny Lockheed. Welcome to our board. I like your sense of humor!
GEL

THANKS!

 

[Matthan]

Canadian75, I apologize for "taunting" you with my reply. That was not a Christian thing to do, and I am deeply sorry for doing it. I can only hope you can forgive me for basic stupidity. I sure am guilty of same.

I do hope, in the interest of better interdenominational understanding, that you at least comment on my post from a Catholic's point of view. However, if you choose not to because of my unchristian attitude, I will understand.

Matthan <J><

 

[Canadian75]

Canadian75, I apologize for "taunting" you with my reply. That was not a Christian thing to do, and I am deeply sorry for doing it. I can only hope you can forgive me for basic stupidity. I sure am guilty of same.

I do hope, in the interest of better interdenominational understanding, that you at least comment on my post from a Catholic's point of view. However, if you choose not to because of my unchristian attitude, I will understand.

Matthan <J><

No prob, but I don't have a particularly well-researched response. This is because: A) I shouldn't debate in this forum, and B) I've been questioning a lot of Catholic doctrines lately. If you have noticed, my faith icon has changed to "Christian" from "Catholic". Not because I've officially left the RCC, but I am re-evaluating my beliefs. But if you are looking for some sort of answer, I'll give you a general one based on these verses.
The Catholic Church is not the only denom that believes in real presence. Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans also hold this belief (I'm sure others do as well, but I'm not as aquainted with those denoms). I'll stay away from Transubstantiation because this is a particularly Catholic belief not held by Orthodox, Lutherans and many Anglicans. So as for real presence and John 6, my best explanation for using these verses to support the idea is the fact that some bible verses have multiple shades of meaning. Jesus in the verses previously posted is referring to a spiritual teaching. However, he could very well be also foreshadowing the last supper and the institution of the eucharist. So by telling the people to drink his blood and eat his flesh he is both being metaphorical and literal at the same time. The metaphor was for the edification of the people present while the literal was in anticipation of the sacrament of the eucharist. Now, many can say that Jesus is present either physically or spiritually in the bread and the wine. Either way is a form of real presence. The technicalities of the real presence is debated frequently and not really an area I get into, though I do understand the various positions. That all being said, I still was not looking to push a particular position or debate the issue. I am in a transitional period in my spiritual journey. I am re-examining everything I believe in order to come to a deeper relationship with our Lord and God. Only He knows where this will end. But, I came here to this forum to understand the Baptist perspective a bit better (in relatively general terms since I know there are variations in Baptist beliefs as there are in many different denoms). I am one of those annoying Catholics (annoying to more conservative Catholics) that believe a Christian is a Christian regardless of denom and only God knows for certain who the true Christians are (the wheat vs. the chaff). I've always kind of held to CS Lewis' idea of the "invisible church." I just want to know my brothers and sisters better, to ulitmately find the community that God wants me to be a part of to increase me in faith and bring me closer to Him, and finally to behold His Glory and dwell in His presence in the hereafter. But here I am rambling on...sorry about that.

Peace all.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

Here is what i believe, the bread and wine that we share at the Lord's Table, is Jesus's body and blood, but it is a spiritual thing, not an actual. As in when someone toasts the bride and groom at a wedding, we raise the cup and have a sip when someone says a toast, because we are agreeing with it, not because it is some magical spell. Like if i am at my high school crushes wedding, i'm a little jealous lets say. Someone says a toast and i cannot bare to get that class to my mouth because of my feelings. Or if the father of the bride does not really like the idea of his daughter marrying this fellow so maybe he has a few too many wine and when a toast is made to the bride and groom he throws his glass in the corner just before he says what he thinks of the whole thing. Though that glass thrown has no magical power, it is still saying a lot in what he did.

Sooo, my point is, when we are having the bread and the wine at the Lord's Table, we are doing it in rememberance of the Body that was sacraficed and the blood that was shed. Also it is a time to ask God to reveal any sin in our life that we should turn from. Like if i am working at an office and am flirting with a man there, God brings up this sin to me and i ask for forgiveness and agree i will turn from this sin, i do partake in the Lord's Table, remembering what Jesus attained on the cross for me. Now the next month (or however long) that the church is having the Lord's Table, i realize that i've tried to turn from my sin, but i cannot agree that i have fully, so this month i will let the cup and bread pass by for fear of drinking condemnation onto myself.

So i would say spiritually, we do partake in the Lord's body and blood.

Do my ramblings make any sence at all?

Sort of, but I'm still confused. Do you know of any websites that can explain the Calvin/Reformed position? Do you treat the bread and wine/grape juice as if it was Christ Himself?

I am in a transitional period in my spiritual journey. I am re-examining everything I believe in order to come to a deeper relationship with our Lord and God. Only He knows where this will end. But, I came here to this forum to understand the Baptist perspective a bit better (in relatively general terms since I know there are variations in Baptist beliefs as there are in many different denoms). I am one of those annoying Catholics (annoying to more conservative Catholics) that believe a Christian is a Christian regardless of denom and only God knows for certain who the true Christians are (the wheat vs. the chaff). I've always kind of held to CS Lewis' idea of the "invisible church." I just want to know my brothers and sisters better, to ulitmately find the community that God wants me to be a part of to increase me in faith and bring me closer to Him, and finally to behold His Glory and dwell in His presence in the hereafter.

Well, I'm glad that someone is in the same boat as I am I too am in the midst of re-evaluating my beliefs-actually, this has been going on for nearly the past 10+ years with no end in sight . . .

Diane