John 5:18

[Valid Name]

Greetings All!

I am curious what you believe is being said here:

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Is the writer saying that He DID make himself equal with The Father, and is the writer saying he DID break Shabbat?

I have no good insight to this verse, and was hoping someone else does!

Peace,
Valid Name

 

[johnd]

John 5:18 is a record of what the Jews said / thought the same as John 8:59.

Jesus through raising himself from the grave proved he was not blaspheming in John 8:58, that he is the L-rd of the Sabbath in John 5, and equal with G-d (see also Philippians 2:5-11).

Sometimes the Bible simply reposrt the historical event, belief, comment without necessarily immediately commenting on its accuracy / validity. Note in the letter from Claudius Liceas in Acts where he wrote how he saved Paul from the Jews. That was not accurate. He was going to beat the truth out of Paul until he found out Paul was a Roman citizen and could already have brought him up on charges,

Regards,

 

[simchat_torah]

Did he break the Sabbath?

no.
He did however, reject certain Halachic decisions concerning the Shabbat mitzvot. Yet he still even upheld Mishnaic views of the Sabbath. Basically, what I'm saying is that no, he did not break the Sabbath. This much is blazingly clear.

Then what grounds does the second claim they make become true?
hehe, just something to think about.

shalom,
yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

Just for reference, here's Philippians 2

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Y'shua HaMoshiach:
6Who, being in very nature G-d,
did not consider equality with G-d something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death--
even death on a stake!
9Therefore G-d exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Y'shua every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Y'shua HaMoshiach is Adonai,
to the glory of G-d the Father.

Interestingly, the author here states explicitly: "Who, being in very nature G-d,
did not consider equality with G-d something to be grasped."

Next, I'll make note of John 8:58-59 passage.

shalom,
yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

Ironically, the Tanakh is in Hebrew, the Brit Chadasha is in Greek, and we have an english translation. So an assumption is made between the correlation of the thee... let's examine that correlation.
In Exodus 3:13 *(I AM)--- Hebrew: *(hayah)
*def.= (always emphatic) will to come to pass
or will become

In Mark 16:62 (same as the John 8 passage) I *am--- Greek: *(i'-mee)
*def.= (always first person, singular, present, and indicitive) exist

now notice that with the Hebrew (and this is the only place in the Masoratic texts this occurs) it is "I AM" (one word) being referred to as "will come to pass."

Now in the Greek (and this is only referring to the word "am") it is exists.(one more quick note, this "am" used here is a commonplace word amongst the Brit Chadasha)

So Yeshua was saying before moses I existed.

YHVH was saying I will become. "Become what?" one may ask.
YHVH will become what ever it is you need. Yehovah Yirah: the L-RD my provider
Yehovah Nissi: the L-RD my banner
Yehovah Tsidkenu: the L-RD my righteousness
Yehovah M'Kaddesh: the L-RD my sanctifier
Yehovah Rophi: the L-RD my healer
the list goes on and on.

YHVH will BE all of our needs. He is all in all. Now take note of I Cor. 15:27-28
"For he as put 'everything underneath his feet'. Now when it says that 'everything' has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include G-d himself, who put everything underneath the Messiah. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

The bible itself speaks that it is clear that Yeshua is not included in this G-d, who put all under Yeshua's feet. Yet we are under Yeshua's feet, and all will proclaim him as L-rd (adonai), yet he also proclaims his father (YHVH) to be his Adonai. As David said "My L-rd (adonai) said to my L-RD (YHVH)..."
This theme becomes quite common in the Tanakh. The L-rd (adonai) subjects himself to the L-RD (YHVH). This also happens in Rev. 3:12-14 as Yeshua declares "MY G-D" four times.


This idea is echoed in Jewish thought. We see the lesser and Greater Yud Hey Vav Hey. Often, in mystical writings, the lesser YHVH is referred to as the Metatron.

Of course, this is getting into very heavy kabbalistic views, so I'll just leave it at a few thoughts:

1) Are the two "I am" passages significantly related to each other after considering language contexts?
2) Does the Torah, Tenach, Brit Chadasha, etc support an equality between the entities of the Greater and Lesser YHVH?
3) Does the Tenach and Ketuvim Netzarim support an equality between Y'shua and his adonai?

These should be excellent starter questions.

Shalom,
Yafet.

 

[Henaynei]

Well said SimchaTorah

 

[Azad]

Ironically, the Tanakh is in Hebrew, the Brit Chadasha is in Greek, and we have an english translation. So an assumption is made between the correlation of the thee... let's examine that correlation.
In Exodus 3:13 *(I AM)--- Hebrew: *(hayah)
*def.= (always emphatic) will to come to pass
or will become

In Mark 16:62 (same as the John 8 passage) I *am--- Greek: *(i'-mee)
*def.= (always first person, singular, present, and indicitive) exist

now notice that with the Hebrew (and this is the only place in the Masoratic texts this occurs) it is "I AM" (one word) being referred to as "will come to pass."

Now in the Greek (and this is only referring to the word "am") it is exists.(one more quick note, this "am" used here is a commonplace word amongst the Brit Chadasha)

So Yeshua was saying before moses I existed.

YHVH was saying I will become. "Become what?" one may ask.
YHVH will become what ever it is you need. Yehovah Yirah: the L-RD my provider
Yehovah Nissi: the L-RD my banner
Yehovah Tsidkenu: the L-RD my righteousness
Yehovah M'Kaddesh: the L-RD my sanctifier
Yehovah Rophi: the L-RD my healer
the list goes on and on.

YHVH will BE all of our needs. He is all in all. Now take note of I Cor. 15:27-28
"For he as put 'everything underneath his feet'. Now when it says that 'everything' has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include G-d himself, who put everything underneath the Messiah. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

The bible itself speaks that it is clear that Yeshua is not included in this G-d, who put all under Yeshua's feet. Yet we are under Yeshua's feet, and all will proclaim him as L-rd (adonai), yet he also proclaims his father (YHVH) to be his Adonai. As David said "My L-rd (adonai) said to my L-RD (YHVH)..."
This theme becomes quite common in the Tanakh. The L-rd (adonai) subjects himself to the L-RD (YHVH). This also happens in Rev. 3:12-14 as Yeshua declares "MY G-D" four times.


This idea is echoed in Jewish thought. We see the lesser and Greater Yud Hey Vav Hey. Often, in mystical writings, the lesser YHVH is referred to as the Metatron.

Of course, this is getting into very heavy kabbalistic views, so I'll just leave it at a few thoughts:

1) Are the two "I am" passages significantly related to each other after considering language contexts?
2) Does the Torah, Tenach, Brit Chadasha, etc support an equality between the entities of the Greater and Lesser YHVH?
3) Does the Tenach and Ketuvim Netzarim support an equality between Y'shua and his adonai?

These should be excellent starter questions.

Shalom,
Yafet.

Are you saying their two Gods????????????????????

 

[simchat_torah]

I've merely pointed out what the Bible says, I'm asking you to draw the conclusions... then we can discuss what conclusions you (or any reader) has drawn.

shalom,
yafet.

p.s. call it the philosopher in me

 

[Azad]

I would like to know what your conclusion's are?

 

[Valid Name]

Greetings Yafet!

Thank you for your replies! I'm quite tired now, but I hope to get back to you tommorrow! That being Sunday Evening!

Peace,
Valid Name

 

[koilias]

Did he break the Sabbath?

no.
He did however, reject certain Halachic decisions concerning the Shabbat mitzvot. Yet he still even upheld Mishnaic views of the Sabbath. Basically, what I'm saying is that no, he did not break the Sabbath. This much is blazingly clear.

Then what grounds does the second claim they make become true?
hehe, just something to think about.

shalom,
yafet.

Great points, Yafet. I have views of John's mysticism, perhaps I'll run them by you because I don't know what the kabbalah might comment on this (I study only ancient apocrypha and Dead Sea Scrolls, I'm a newbie in your world).

John's gospel claims (between the lines of course) that Yeshua is the light (the "Word") of the first day of creation. That the "Word" was the "light" was a view expressed by Philo of Alexandria, a contemporary of Yeshua. The light of the first day of creation, I've read in B'resheet Rabbah, the sages considered reserved for the righteous in Olam haBah. In a real sense, the "first day" of creation was not yet manifest on earth, according to the Yohanine school,...it was set aside by HaShem for a special time. As Isaiah 60 prophesied, it would come with the advent of the Messiah, an eternal day, the light of a new creation, which would supplant the sun for eternity (the creature of the fourth day). When Yeshua came preaching that "the Kingdom of Shamayim (God) is among you", his contemporaries would have understood (if they studied their version of early kabbalah), that this implied that the "first day of creation" was physically manifest among them. As long as the first day of creation is "among you", then the Father is still working and the Son is still working, because it is the first day of creation. The Son replaces the Sun in divine accounting. There is no "Shabbat" on earth as long as the light of the Eternal Day walks among men! Therefore Yeshua says "Work while you have the light, for the night is coming when no man can work". In other words do the "deeds" of the Olam haBah, in fact, participate alongside HaShem in creating the new creation! This is what Yeshua means in John 3:1-21: to be "born" into a new creation, one needs to do the deeds of the light, not the deeds of darkness, which belong to the passing world.

Yafet, if you can fill me in on what the kabbalah says about the light of the first day, I'm anxious to know...

B'rukheem

 

[Valid Name]

Greetings Yafet,

It is good to hear from you again! Have you visited Tzaddikim in while? I have not seen you there for a while, and I must say I do apologize. I believe that you and I on different scales. You are much more knowledgeable than I, which can cause it to be hard for me to relate to your conversations! This is okay though, he who is not against us is for us!

I do appreciate the replies to this thread. I do however have all the same conlusions as you do to this. In fact, that verse from Corinthians has been one of my favorites.

What my question is more along the lines of who's view point is this statement made? Is the writer interjecting he own opinion, or is he relating the opinion of the Pharisees to us? I would have to conclude the latter with what our knowledge is, but without this knowledge, reading the English, it would be concluded the previous.

Peace,
Valid Name