John 20:21-23

[Ave Maria]

(Joh 20:21 ESV) Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you."

(Joh 20:22 ESV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

(Joh 20:23 ESV) If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."

Catholics use these verses as support for the sacrament of reconciliation (confession). How do Protestants who disagree with confession explain these verses?

 

[ischus]

well, I guess there is the NASB which brings out the Greek tenses a bit better:

"If you forgive the sins of any, {their sins} have been forgiven them; if you retain the {sins} of any, they have been retained."

Forgiveness of a person is an action already completed by God in the past, before any third party is involved in the situation.

 

[linssue55]

(Joh 20:21 ESV) Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you."

(Joh 20:22 ESV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

(Joh 20:23 ESV) If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."

Catholics use these verses as support for the sacrament of reconciliation (confession). How do Protestants who disagree with confession explain these verses?

1 John 1:9

 

[Ave Maria]

1 John 1:9

How does 1 John 1:9 refute the idea of confessing your sins to a priest for forgiveness of sins? If you ask me, 1 John 1:9 only reinforces the sacrament of reconciliation.

(1Jo 1:9 ESV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[linssue55]

How does 1 John 1:9 refute the idea of confessing your sins to a priest for forgiveness of sins? If you ask me, 1 John 1:9 only reinforces the sacrament of reconciliation.

(1Jo 1:9 ESV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is for confession of sins 1 John 1:9 For God the fathers ears ONLY....I will never believe in telling another person my sins....this is between me and God the Father....privacy of the Priesthood

reconcilliation is a part of salvation....Rom 5:10 & 2 Cor 5:18-19

 

[Ave Maria]

This is for confession of sins 1 John 1:9 For God the fathers ears ONLY....I will never believe in telling another person my sins....this is between me and God the Father....privacy of the Priesthood

reconcilliation is a part of salvation....Rom 5:10 & 2 Cor 5:18-19

I'm sorry. I still don't understand. But then again, that could be partly due to the fact that it is an hour before church and I am half asleep. Could you explain it some more please?

 

[linssue55]

I'm sorry. I still don't understand. But then again, that could be partly due to the fact that it is an hour before church and I am half asleep. Could you explain it some more please?

What exactly do you want me to explain?

 

[Willo]

How does 1 John 1:9 refute the idea of confessing your sins to a priest for forgiveness of sins? If you ask me, 1 John 1:9 only reinforces the sacrament of reconciliation.

(1Jo 1:9 ESV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9 has nothing to do with confessing sins to a preist, it is confessing our sins to God, as He has the power to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If you are relying on a preist to forgive you chances are you are not forgiven. As Jesus Christ paid the fine, and only He can forgive sin.

Christ paid our fine for the sin we have commited, not a preist, but the Lord Jesus Christ. If a preist could do it, then Christ died in vain.

 

[Ave Maria]

1 John 1:9 has nothing to do with confessing sins to a preist, it is confessing our sins to God, as He has the power to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If you are relying on a preist to forgive you chances are you are not forgiven. As Jesus Christ paid the fine, and only He can forgive sin.

Christ paid our fine for the sin we have commited, not a preist, but the Lord Jesus Christ. If a preist could do it, then Christ died in vain.

Where does the Bible say that only Jesus can forgive sin? John 20:22-23 clearly states that Jesus gave His apostles the power to forgive sin. And by the way, lets stick to interpreting John 20:22-23 as that is the verse that I am asking about. I admit that 1 John 1:9 could easily mean confessing your sins to God.

 

[Willo]

Didn't you already ask this question in the Baptist forum? I answered from what I heard there

 

[Willo]

John Gill said in regards to the matter:

Joh 20:23 - Whose soever sins ye remit,.... God only can forgive sins, and Christ being God, has a power to do so likewise; but he never communicated any such power to his apostles; nor did they ever assume any such power to themselves, or pretend to exercise it; it is the mark of antichrist, to attempt anything of the kind; who, in so doing, usurps the divine prerogative, places himself in his seat, and shows himself as if he was God: but this is to be understood only in a doctrinal, or ministerial way, by preaching the full and free remission of sins, through the blood of Christ, according to the riches of God's grace, to such as repent of their sins, and believe in Christ; declaring, that all such persons as do so repent and believe, all their sins are forgiven for Christ's sake: and accordingly,

they are remitted unto them; in agreement with Christ's own words, in his declaration and commission to his disciples; see Mar_16:16. On the other hand he signifies, that

whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained: that is, that whatsoever sins ye declare are not forgiven, they are not forgiven; which is the case of all final unbelievers, and impenitent sinners; who dying without repentance towards God, and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel declaration, shall be damned, and are damned; for God stands by, and will stand by and confirm the Gospel of his Son, faithfully preached by his ministering servants; and all the world will sooner or later be convinced of the validity, truth, and certainty, of the declarations on each of these heads, made by them.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Protestants believe Jesus is talking about the gospel rather than confession. The disciples' "forgiveness power" is dependent on what God had already declared beforehand (building on what Ischus said). If those to whom they preach reject the gospel, their sins were not forgiven, those who accept the gospel are forgiven.


LDG

 

[linssue55]

Where does the Bible say that only Jesus can forgive sin? John 20:22-23 clearly states that Jesus gave His apostles the power to forgive sin. And by the way, lets stick to interpreting John 20:22-23 as that is the verse that I am asking about. I admit that 1 John 1:9 could easily mean confessing your sins to God.

Sorry but the LORD is the only one that DIED for our sins...for a human mortal who sins themselves where is the omnipotence required for a priest to have the authority?? Priests are sinners! "There should be NO Gods before or after me", and you are putting these mere mortals in the place of the Lord. Shame... Shame......Shame........

 

[PaladinValer]

You'll have to forgive Holly. What she said is not what Vatican Catholics actually believe. Go to OBOB as ask them there yourselves, they'll tell you she's not representing their church or their beliefs.

Vatican Catholics believe that God acts through the priest or bishop. The bishop or priest is merely almost like a "proxy."

 

[InnerPhyre]

PV is correct. We believe God acts through the priest. Holly misrepresented (though not intentionally) the specifics of our beliefs regarding the sacrament of reconciliation.

 

[Ave Maria]

You'll have to forgive Holly. What she said is not what Vatican Catholics actually believe. Go to OBOB as ask them there yourselves, they'll tell you she's not representing their church or their beliefs.

Vatican Catholics believe that God acts through the priest or bishop. The bishop or priest is merely almost like a "proxy."

PV is correct. We believe God acts through the priest. Holly misrepresented (though not intentionally) the specifics of our beliefs regarding the sacrament of reconciliation.

Please forgive me everyone. These two are correct. I did not intend to misrepresent the Catholic Church but accidentally did so out of ignorance.

 

[ischus]

Please forgive me everyone.

Col.3:13

 

[Edial]

(Joh 20:21 ESV) Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you."

(Joh 20:22 ESV) And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

(Joh 20:23 ESV) If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."

Catholics use these verses as support for the sacrament of reconciliation (confession). How do Protestants who disagree with confession explain these verses?

Holly3278, there are many reasons why the reputation of today's Church office holders is strongly questioned by many.
There is also no Scriptural evidence that the priests inherited such an absolution based on the confession.
But I will not get into that. It has been discussed before.

The reason many do not believe into the sacrament of the confession is because of this verse.
JAS 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

The confession to "a man" is only as effective as when he confesses back to you of his sins. (The Catholics agree that the priests and bishops are just men).

However, many in the Catholic church (as in other churches) are not saved in the Biblical context, so I personally do not mind "a priest" as a mediator between Christ and a non-born-again person.

You see, the priests are for the non-believers, not for the believers.

And "yes" they certainly do have a function to "making their own jobs obsolete" - to bring people the gospel of Jesus Christ and "getting them" saved, as defined in the Bible.

Priests MUST preach the gospel as it is presented in the Bible.
It is a plain matter of obedience.

AC 6:7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.

Good question.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[filosofer]

I am not RCC, Orthodox, nor "Protestant". And so far, none of the views reflect what Lutherans confess regarding this passage (and others). But, for now, I would like to point out that the ESV translation is wrong in v. 23:

ESV: If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.

NKJV: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.

In the Greek the word KRATHTE has the sense of "hold fast, or retain" (BAGD, 448). The ESV misuses the word "withhold" in this context. Notice that it appears as if the ESV is claiming that disciples are controlling the forgiveness - "they are lording it over someone by withholding forgiveness."

However, in the Greek, it is clear that what the disciples retain or hold against the person are the sins (plural), not forgiveness.

AN TINWN AFHTE TAS hAMARTIAS AFEWNTAI AUTOIS

if ever of whom you forgive the sins, they are forgiven to/for them

AN TINWN KRATHTE KEKRATHNTAI

if ever of whom .... you retain, they have been (and are still) retained ...

Note, the parallel construction of the sentence. The direct object in the first part is "the sins" (TAS hAMARTIAS); the indirect object is "to them" (AUTOIS) . In the Greek of the second part of the sentence, the direct object and the indirect object are not supplied. But normal Greek structure means that the direct object and indirect object previously mentioned would carry over. Thus, the second line would translate:

if ever of whom [the sins] you retain, they are retained [to them]

Note that ESV changes this, so that it takes the verb of the first part of the sentence (forgive) and makes it into a noun (forgiveness) to be used as the direct object in the second phrase. I don't know of any other case in which such a practice is followed, especially by a translation that favors an "essentially literal" approach.

 

[livingproofGM]

I think I'm right in saying that the only other time God ever breathed on anyone was in Genesis when creating Adam. I'd say anyone that has taken in the breath of the Lord has a special authority.