John 17

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, All

I am some what confused by the way this portion of Scripture is explained. I do not believe that Rome has spoken either negitively or positively on this passage. What is your understanding of this passage as it relates to "one-ness"

Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Joh 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.



Thank you for your time.

BBAS

 

[kimber1]

wasn't He speaking of the disciples? praying that God protect them so that they could minister to the world of the Gospel and that they would stay as of one mind (unity) in what He taught them? that's what i get out of it anyway

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

It means that we aren't suppose to be a bunch of different and contradictory denominations because that makes the Christian truth claims look ridiculous.

St Paul spoke against schisms as well.

 

[Metanoia02]

BBAS,

Check out what John Paul II had to say about this very subject in Ut unum Sint:

http://www.newadvent.org/docs/jp02uu.htm

It is a long document, but if you want to get the Church perspective on unity this is as good as it gets.

 

[BBAS 64]

BBAS,

Check out what John Paul II had to say about this very subject in Ut unum Sint:

http://www.newadvent.org/docs/jp02uu.htm

It is a long document, but if you want to get the Church perspective on unity this is as good as it gets.

Met,

Thank you! Good document from the RCC prespective. I may Have some questions after I read it . If that is OK with you on this document pertains to John 17.

Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[Metanoia02]

Met,

Thank you! Good document from the RCC prespective. I may Have some questions after I read it . If that is OK with you on this document pertains to John 17.

Peace to u,

BBAS

Questions are always welcome!

 

[Polycarp1]

BBAS,

Check out what John Paul II had to say about this very subject in Ut unum Sint:

http://www.newadvent.org/docs/jp02uu.htm

It is a long document, but if you want to get the Church perspective on unity this is as good as it gets.

Please forgive this, because it is not intended as disrespectful to a very great man:

But reading that bolded line as you wrote it, I got this absolutely incongruous picture of Pope John Paul II holding up a bottle of that beer from the commercial where that line is the catch phrase!

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Please forgive this, because it is not intended as disrespectful to a very great man:

But reading that bolded line as you wrote it, I got this absolutely incongruous picture of Pope John Paul II holding up a bottle of that beer from the commercial where that line is the catch phrase!

How bout this one?

http://www.phatmass.com/downloads/papers/true800.jpg

 

[Metanoia02]

Please forgive this, because it is not intended as disrespectful to a very great man:

But reading that bolded line as you wrote it, I got this absolutely incongruous picture of Pope John Paul II holding up a bottle of that beer from the commercial where that line is the catch phrase!

No offense taken

It is always good to remember the John Paul was not always John Paul. He was born Karol Wojtyla. He was a poet and actor before he became a priest. As a young parish priest in post war Poland he spent a lot of time with the young people in his parish. No doubt he shared a cold one or two with them.

 

[pmarquette]

It means , for the first time , the 11 ( less judas ) were on their own
between the resurection of Jesus and Pentecost ....

there was no rome , no papacy , no church building , no church government

Jesus said I have not lost any of my sheep , except Judas ....

strengthen , lead , protect , anoint them that they too might accomplish their
task ( father's will ) as I accomplished mine ...

 

[BBAS 64]

It means that we aren't suppose to be a bunch of different and contradictory denominations because that makes the Christian truth claims look ridiculous.

St Paul spoke against schisms as well.

Good Day, DOF

Could you show me the command you cited in an other thread. If it was directed at "we" whom is the subject of the verb at the point in time this command was given?

We didn't disobey Jesus' command to be ONE Church in John 17.

Thank you.

BBAS

 

[BBAS 64]

BBAS,

Check out what John Paul II had to say about this very subject in Ut unum Sint:

http://www.newadvent.org/docs/jp02uu.htm

It is a long document, but if you want to get the Church perspective on unity this is as good as it gets.

Good Day, Met

I have read this though once and surely must read again. So if I happen to miss something that was contained in there forgive me .

As far as the passage in John 17 it is refered to as some sort of refence, but not as a passage in and of it self. I see many assersions with out much by way of substance lots of Vatican II stuff which I guess would be good if you find Vatican II to be use full in your service to the Lord, Not sure only read that once.

Found this to be interesting "Christ calls all his disciples to unity" with out qualification. Now I do not Know where that comes from may be John 17 not very clear.

Would you happen to have a commentary you may use for this verse. I can go back to Chrysostom's having read it, could you recommend another?

Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[PeterPaul]

I also interpret it as Christ's Church should be one as Jesus is one with the Father.

 

[BBAS 64]

I also interpret it as Christ's Church should be one as Jesus is one with the Father.

Good day, PeterPaul

Thank you for that answer. Why the "should" on the front side of a "AS" comparision.

Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[PeterPaul]

I'm sorry, I'm sick. I meant to say that it IS one as Jesus is one with the Father, and those who claim to be the true Church of Christ should want to be one with Jesus and join the Catholic faith.

 

[BBAS 64]

I'm sorry, I'm sick. I meant to say that it IS one as Jesus is one with the Father, and those who claim to be the true Church of Christ should want to be one with Jesus and join the Catholic faith.

Well Peterpaul,

I hope you are feeling better . I think we can agree on this one thing that the Father and son are one. So would you agree that the church is allways one in the eyes of God reguardless of how you understand the one-ness of it.

Your condition of what people should do, has no merit on the exergises of this passage with in the context IMHO, do you know of an complete exergises on JN 17 that contains this as part of the systematic understanding of this passage? I will check Chrysostom's if you would like and post it.

Do you believe that Jesus failed in the prayer to the father on the behalve of those which God had given him?

Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Do you believe that Jesus failed in the prayer to the father on the behalve of those which God had given him?

Freewill. People can schism. Doesn't mean Jesus failed. Jesus told Simon to strengthen his brothers for the devil was going to shift them like wheat.

You might as well ask did God fail creating humans, considering most will go to Hell via the wide gate.

 

[BBAS 64]

Freewill. People can schism. Doesn't mean Jesus failed. Jesus told Simon to strengthen his brothers for the devil was going to shift them like wheat..

Good Day, DOF

So do you think the effectiveness of the Lord's prayer is determined by the FREEWILL of those the father has given to the son Jn 17:9?

Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Was it not Simon that was sifted like weat, did his faith fail? Do you think it was his freewill that allowed his faith to hold against the sifting by satan? If that is the case why would Jesus pray?

You might as well ask did God fail creating humans, considering most will go to Hell via the wide gate.

I would never ask if he fail in his creation the creation is at the mercy and in the control of the creator. The vesels are or the type which can be varified on all levels of understanding from a human prospective. "Delacarte" [sp]

I agree with you here most will go to Hell for wide is the gate.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

But far be it for me to be the man of which Paul speaks here in Romans. If you feel that you must for full that role so be it. I do not see that as a good position to be in IMHO and will pray for your understanding.


Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Um...how is it that I am in the role of the man Paul speaks of in Romans?

So do you think the effectiveness of the Lord's prayer is determined by the FREEWILL of those the father has given to the son Jn 17:9?

I don't believe that God will force people to do anything, no. Jesus' prayer was essential in keeping the Church in one piece, but people can always leave it of their own freewill.

 

[BBAS 64]

Um...how is it that I am in the role of the man Paul speaks of in Romans?



I don't believe that God will force people to do anything, no. Jesus' prayer was essential in keeping the Church in one piece, but people can always leave it of their own freewill.

Good Day, Dof

Force I never said force. How was Jesus's pray essential, but lacking in effectiveness in that it was dependant upon freewill of the group "those whom the father had given" whom it was said for.

Do you mean if the prayer was not said by Jesus, a choice by these could not of been made? Do you think God has a freewill?

Peace to u,

BBAS