John 12:39-40

[Emsmom1]

I am a new believer and just started reading the bible again (I grew up in a Christian home and went to Christian school but have never read the bible of my own volition before now). I've been reading the gospel of John and found this verse:
John 12:38-40: 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
When John says "therefore they could not believe," who is he talking about? The Jews that saw his miracles and didn't believe?
What does it mean when it says "He (I'm assuming this means God) has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts?" Are we to believe that God does the same today to some people?
Thanks for any clarification on this. I am finding the bible more challenging than I expected.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I am a new believer and just started reading the bible again (I grew up in a Christian home and went to Christian school but have never read the bible of my own volition before now). I've been reading the gospel of John and found this verse:
John 12:38-40: 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
When John says "therefore they could not believe," who is he talking about? The Jews that saw his miracles and didn't believe?
What does it mean when it says "He (I'm assuming this means God) has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts?" Are we to believe that God does the same today to some people?
Thanks for any clarification on this. I am finding the bible more challenging than I expected.

This has to do with the obstinate nature of people, not God's intentional causing of people to disbelieve. What's being said here is that Isaiah prophesied that even in the face of the overwhelming supernatural evidence of Jesus' divinity, people would refuse to accept the testimony of God. The book of John's theme is testimony or witness. It's showing all of the different ways in which people and God testified to the humanity and divinity of Jesus, and includes many passages where John himself lets us know that he was a witness to these events.

One thing you have to remember is that the Bible wasn't written in our idioms but in the idioms of those who lived 2000 years ago (and further back in the case of the Old Testament).

If I say something to you today that you take offense at, even if its true, you could be hardened by my words and refuse to accept them. Back then, an author might write that I hardened your heart. But, it was understood that I didn't change your own will. That wouldn't have been a way that people thought about this.

Seeing (evidence) they might not see. And if they would only see and believe, God could have turned their hearts and healed them. If we assume that this is saying that God was hardening their hearts on purpose, then he really didn't want to heal them. That would make no sense at all. It was their own obstinate refusal to believe which ended up preventing them from recognizing God when they saw him.

That's my way of reading this anyway.

 

[Al Touthentop]

By the way, kudos to you for earnestly reading the Bible and trying to understand it. Keep going.

 

[Daniel C]

John is quoting the previously spoken words of the prophet Isaiah and explaining how the prophecy of Isiah is fulfilled in Christ:

Isaiah 53:1
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

 

[HTacianas]

I am a new believer and just started reading the bible again (I grew up in a Christian home and went to Christian school but have never read the bible of my own volition before now). I've been reading the gospel of John and found this verse:
John 12:38-40: 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
When John says "therefore they could not believe," who is he talking about? The Jews that saw his miracles and didn't believe?
What does it mean when it says "He (I'm assuming this means God) has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts?" Are we to believe that God does the same today to some people?
Thanks for any clarification on this. I am finding the bible more challenging than I expected.

"He has blinded..." is a perspective on events as the writer sees them. The Essenes of biblical times had a saying of sorts that went "all things are best ascribed to God". In answer to the question "why do some not believe...", if it is ascribed to God, it is because God has hardened their hearts.

 

[Al Touthentop]

"He has blinded..." is a perspective on events as the writer sees them. The Essenes of biblical times had a saying of sorts that went "all things are best ascribed to God". In answer to the question "why do some not believe...", if it is ascribed to God, it is because God has hardened their hearts.

The question is, what does that mean, that he hardened their hearts? Was it intentional, ie; he caused them to disbelieve, or is that language speaking of how men receive God's word of their own will?

I think the former view can't be reconciled with his stated desire to heal them.

 

[HTacianas]

The question is, what does that mean, that he hardened their hearts? Was it intentional, ie; he caused them to disbelieve, or is that language speaking of how men receive God's word of their own will?

I think the former view can't be reconciled with his stated desire to heal them.

Well, as I said it is a perspective. We can only be certain that they rejected the message. The reason is that their hearts were hardened. To some it might be Satan hardening their hearts, to some it may be their own desires that hardened their hearts, but to the writer it was God who hardened their hearts. Compare these two verses:

1Ch 21:1 - And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 - And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

They both refer to the same census David took of Israel, but one writer ascribes it to Satan while the other writer ascribes it to God.

We do not know who moved David to count the men of Israel, only that he did. Also, we do not know why the hearts of the men were hardened, only that they were.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Well, as I said it is a perspective. We can only be certain that they rejected the message. The reason is that their hearts were hardened. To some it might be Satan hardening their hearts, to some it may be their own desires that hardened their hearts, but to the writer it was God who hardened their hearts. Compare these two verses:

1Ch 21:1 - And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

2Sa 24:1 - And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

They both refer to the same census David took of Israel, but one writer ascribes it to Satan while the other writer ascribes it to God.

Really interesting. I never noticed how these seem to be at odds. Makes me wonder if there are more passages like this.

The anger of the Lord was against Israel and its enemies moved against it. David's decision to take a census was in order that he might beforehand know what his chances were against his enemies. We know that this very act proved that he was not first consulting with God. Because God could help Israel defeat the enemies no matter how many soldiers there were and if he wasn't inclined, no amount of Israel's soldiers could withstand their enemies.

God moved David, as written in 2 Samuel. If we accept that this is some sort of bending of David's will by God then we would also have to accept that God caused David to sin and then later punished him for it. That is not the actions of a righteous God. And we're not told how this "movement" was accomplished. In fact, what's odd is that when he offers David three choices for his punishment he does so through the mouth of a prophet. David's actions were not caused because God's word came to him through a prophet.

A more plausible conclusion than God causing David to sin, is that David convinced himself that he was doing God's will. He should have consulted God first but he didn't. He later confesses his sin without any prodding by God. So maybe the passage is illustrating his excuse for calling for a census rather than God's causing him to do something.

We do not know who moved David to count the men of Israel, only that he did. Also, we do not know why the hearts of the men were hardened, only that they were.

I think sometimes it's more subtle than that and the language of that time is not how our language would describe something.

 

[Al Touthentop]

"He has blinded..." is a perspective on events as the writer sees them. The Essenes of biblical times had a saying of sorts that went "all things are best ascribed to God". In answer to the question "why do some not believe...", if it is ascribed to God, it is because God has hardened their hearts.

This view would lead us to conclude that even though God is extending the possibility of salvation to all, he intentionally causes people to end up in hell by "hardening their hearts." It might seem at first that this is what the passages are saying, but it brings God's truthfulness into question as well as his impartiality.

What's going on is that the writer was writing in the common vernacular of that period and his readers and generally people of that period would not think that the author was assigning blame, but explaining that the subject matter or words were distasteful or offensive to the listener.

 

[Kylism]

When John says "therefore they could not believe," who is he talking about? The Jews that saw his miracles and didn't believe?

What does it mean when it says "He (I'm assuming this means God) has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts?" .

For me I found verses like these challenging. My first advice is to know that God can answer you. Rest in His goodness to show you.

I decided to read a few verses before and found this:

John 12:37 "Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they [refers to the crowd mentioned in verse 29 and 34] still would not believe in him."​

Some people even with voice of the Father (verse 28) and miracles choose not to believe. I think God had determined to leave them to the blindness and hardness of their hearts.

I link this with other verses using the same Greek word for "blinded"

2 Cor 4:4 "The god of this age [my opinion is this is Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."​

1 John 2:11 "But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him."

Also goes with

2 Cor 4:2 "For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."​

I hope this helps

 

[longwait]

I am a new believer and just started reading the bible again (I grew up in a Christian home and went to Christian school but have never read the bible of my own volition before now). I've been reading the gospel of John and found this verse:
John 12:38-40: 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
When John says "therefore they could not believe," who is he talking about? The Jews that saw his miracles and didn't believe?
What does it mean when it says "He (I'm assuming this means God) has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts?" Are we to believe that God does the same today to some people?
Thanks for any clarification on this. I am finding the bible more challenging than I expected.

Yes, its the Jews. Here's another chapter for that.

But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and they blasphemously contradicted what Paul was saying.
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “It was necessary to speak the word of God to you first. But since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, to bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’"Acts 13:45-47

Yes, if we continuously reject the truth, reject the Son of God then we will be rejected too.

The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie,… 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11