Job; Justification for our suffering, or a tale of victory?

lismore · Apr 15, 2006

Healing is not about doctrines or ideas its about flesh and blood people and about the goodness of the Lord.

Love should be the motivation for everything, remember what we are talking about is people's lives. This is an awesome responsibility to hande. Its more than doctrines or heresies!

Joy · Apr 15, 2006

You are so right love is the key to all ministry but sadly very little evidence is shown here during all the discussions here. In fact you are one of a few people here I'd feel safe with to pray for my healing.

Someone with a long standing physical or emotional problem needs to feel secure with the person who is ministering to them. I know this from personal experiences some of which were not helpful.

TreeOfLife · Apr 15, 2006

Strong in Him said:
What agenda?

The response I posted was the inference from your previous post. At least, that's how I read it.

I have been saying that if someone says "I have not been healed of my illness" and the reply is "Jesus healed everyone who came to him in faith" that can make the sufferer feel guilty, because the implication is "well you can't have come to him in faith." I also asked what
other reason there could be for saying this, or what else a person might mean by it.

If you're saying that if someone said to you that they have not been healed of an illness, and you would answer them by saying "God hasn't given you the faith to be healed", then I think I would actually find that to be more of a comfort. But it still raises, for me anyway, the question of why God hasn't given the faith for healing. And what answers are there other than "the time is not yet right", or "he doesn't yet want you to have it"?

Believe it or not I'm asking genuine questions and trying to understand your position. But I've found that when I post questions in threads on healing that are too difficult, they either get ignored, or I get accused of interpreting everything in the light of my own (sometimes considered heretical) beliefs.

You really kind of blasted me when I honestly was just trying to have a discussion with you about what you had posted.

But that aside, can we talk about the idea I was actually trying to bring up?

lismore · Apr 15, 2006

Jesusismydeliverer said:
Someone with a long standing physical or emotional problem needs to feel secure with the person who is ministering to them.

You are right .

If someone is praying for me Im careful because I have seen people with insecurities or doctrinal pet projects who can get very upset if you dont react the way they expect. Some people who say just believe and everything will be Ok take it personally anytime this doesnt work.

Jesus came and he met people at their point of need. He was also sensitive to their need and was full of compassion for them. each person is a unique and special individual, everyone cannot be looked at with the same lens. And the most important thing is whatever we do is Love for the Lord and love for the person

Strong in Him · Apr 15, 2006

TreeOfLife said:
You really kind of blasted me when I honestly was just trying to have a discussion with you about what you had posted.

Well I'm sorry you read it that way, because I don't feel that I blasted you at all, and it wasn't my intention. This is what I said;

So in other words, when people make that statement, what they're really saying is "you're not healed because you haven't been given the faith to be healed"? Well as it is God who gives faith, if he has not given it to a particular person is that because he doesn't want them to be healed - at that particular point?

My first sentence was a question, I asked if that is what people were saying, and I used this smilie because I wasn't sure. I was puzzled. My second sentence contained both a statement and a question. It is God who gives faith, and if someone says that a person has not been given faith for healing, as far as I can see, it can only be God who has not given it. So I was questionning why.

Then I said;

Presumably not; I would suspect that they are really saying "you haven't received the faith to be healed". Which comes back to the original point, (unspoken) condemnation of the sick person.

Maybe I didn't make this clear enough, but by starting a new paragraph and using the phrase "they are saying", I was thinking of people generally who use this phrase, rather than referring to you personally.

TreeOfLife said:
But that aside, can we talk about the idea I was actually trying to bring up?

Sure, although we may need to start a different thread. We seem to have got way off the topic of Job, and I wouldn't want to start a discussion and then find the thread is closed down.

Christina M · Apr 15, 2006

Jesusismydeliverer said:
Someone with a long standing physical or emotional problem needs to feel secure with the person who is ministering to them. I know this from personal experiences some of which were not helpful.

Sometimes people need to be told the truth about God and His healing power..... sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes hearing that truth will shake them out of their lethargy or lack of knowledge or whatever, and help them break free and be healed.

I'd rather have someone tell me the truth - even if it hurts - then to coddle me and tell me it's ok for me to stay sick (or worse, that God is doing it to me )

Strong in Him · Apr 15, 2006

Christina M said:
Sometimes people need to be told the truth about God and His healing power..... sometimes the truth hurts. Sometimes hearing that truth will shake them out of their lethargy or lack of knowledge or whatever, and help them break free and be healed.

I'm sure that's sometimes the case, but, in this area in particular, it seems there are different ideas about truth. A person might sincerely hold a doctrine of healing that another person sincerely can't accept. A counsellor, or helper, does the person they are trying to help no favours by insisting that their belief is the truth and the only valid one. They need to start from where the person is, and not try to rush them or impose an agenda. Counsellors are there to help people work through problems, work out what they believe, or want, and allow this to happen in the counselee's own time.

As I said in another thread, we all grow. We may be convinced something is right this month, and change our minds the next. Or we may be convinced that we will never accept something, only to find later that it does all make sense.

Christina M · Apr 15, 2006

Strong in Him said:
A person might sincerely hold a doctrine of healing that another person sincerely can't accept.

Then I guess they will "sincerely" stay sick.

You can throw all the life preservers you want at a drowning person, but if they don't at least TRY to grab hold of one, they WILL perish.

JimfromOhio · Apr 15, 2006

Many will say that "Doctrine of Healing" is the ONLY way. But way.... they have their own agenda.

Strong in Him · Apr 15, 2006

Christina M said:
Then I guess they will "sincerely" stay sick.

The Lord can heal regardless of a person's doctrine. Many have been healed without hearing of the WoF movement, in fact they may not have any particular theology of healing or know how they are supposed to pray or believe. The Lord can heal in a service of healing with the laying on of hands, or when a person is alone before him. He can heal instantly or over time. He can heal non Christians who don't believe, he can heal those in comas who are not able to express any belief.

"Lord I believe, help my unbelief", may be the only prayer that some people can manage. It doesn't mean he'll ignore it because it's not as "faith filled" or positive as it "should" be.

Christina M · Apr 15, 2006

Strong in Him said:
The Lord can heal regardless of a person's doctrine. Many have been healed without hearing of the WoF movement, in fact they may not have any particular theology of healing or know how they are supposed to pray or believe. The Lord can heal in a service of healing with the laying on of hands, or when a person is alone before him. He can heal instantly or over time. He can heal non Christians who don't believe, he can heal those in comas who are not able to express any belief.

"Lord I believe, help my unbelief", may be the only prayer that some people can manage. It doesn't mean he'll ignore it because it's not as "faith filled" or positive as it "should" be.

Why is believing God heals automatically labeled WOF???

Why is having faith in the Word so despised?????

Christina M · Apr 15, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
Many will say that "Doctrine of Healing" is the ONLY way. But way.... they have their own agenda.

Why is believing God's word that says "I am the Lord that healeth thee" an "agenda"?

If it is an agenda...I am PROUD to be included in the propaganda of said doctrine of healing.

LittleRocketBoy · Apr 15, 2006

Christina M said:
Why is believing God heals automatically labeled WOF???

Why is having faith in the Word so despised?????

Game #12 if I recall....

JimfromOhio · Apr 15, 2006

Christina M said:
Why is believing God heals automatically labeled WOF???

Why is having faith in the Word so despised?????

By reading the posts, I can see who is WOF and who is Not a WoF. Fred Price is on the WOF leaders.

Christina M · Apr 15, 2006

JimfromOhio said:
By reading the posts, I can see who is WOF and who is Not a WoF. Fred Price is on the WOF leaders.

Did I say anything about Fred Price???

No!

I am saying God WILL heal your deafness.....IF you will allow it. Instead, you continue to hold fast to being deaf.... as if it is a badge of honor.

Not meaning to be offensive....just speaking truth.

Strong in Him · Apr 16, 2006

Christina M said:
Why is believing God heals automatically labeled WOF???

It isn't - I never said it was. It's just that I recognise some of the ideas that have been put forward in this thread as being those which the WoF movement teaches. God heals; I've always said that. He healed Jennifer Rees Larcombe, that was a miracle from him, pure and simple. He's healed me, he heals others, and I've rejoiced with those on the forum who've shared testimony to his healing power. I've no problem with healing. I've also no problem with the Bible, which is precious, which I read, preach and love. The difficulties I have are with certain verses which are applied in certain ways, and I get the impression that these are meant to form a doctrine of healing. That healing usually happens in this way, and if it doesn't then it's because this way hasn't been followed. I have been asking several questions about this, a lot of which have not been answered, so maybe I don't understand truly where you're coming from. But the point that I made a few posts ago still stands - God does not need any doctrine in order to heal. If every Christian in the world believed that God could only heal while they were standing on their heads singing "And can it be?", it doesn't mean that God will be limited to that.

Strong in Him · Apr 16, 2006

Christina M said:
I am saying God WILL heal your deafness.....IF you will allow it. Instead, you continue to hold fast to being deaf.... as if it is a badge of honor.

Not meaning to be offensive....just speaking truth.

I'm sorry Christina, but that is only truth as you see it.

The part about God healing is true, but nowhere in the word does it say that if a person remains unhealed then it's because they are refusing it, and holding fast to their sickness like a "badge of honour." That is an observation.

God WILL heal, he just might not heal as quickly as we would like.

Christina M · Apr 16, 2006

Strong in Him said:
I'm sorry Christina, but that is only truth as you see it.

The part about God healing is true, but nowhere in the word does it say that if a person remains unhealed then it's because they are refusing it, and holding fast to their sickness like a "badge of honour." That is an observation.

God WILL heal, he just might not heal as quickly as we would like.

I feel sorry that you choose to not believe He wants you healed NOW. That is what His word says.... not just my 'observation'.

Here it is ...Easter.....Resurrection! He is a God of making all things perfect, entire and wanting nothing!

Strong in Him · Apr 16, 2006

Christina M said:
I feel sorry that you choose to not believe He wants you healed NOW. That is what His word says.... not just my 'observation'.

Here it is ...Easter.....Resurrection! He is a God of making all things perfect, entire and wanting nothing!

When he tells me that he is going to heal me, then he will. No matter what the circumstances or my feelings might say. His word does not say that everyone will be healed immediately, or God would honour his word and do it.

Christina M · Apr 16, 2006

Strong in Him said:
When he tells me that he is going to heal me, then he will. No matter what the circumstances or my feelings might say. His word does not say that everyone will be healed immediately, or God would honour his word and do it.

He does honor His word, Gill!! It says you must believe you have received it when you pray.

You have just said: "When he tells me that he is going to heal me, then he will." That shows you haven't yet received......

He has ALREADY said He is going to heal you... in His Word. You don't need to hear from Him again.

Job; Justification for our suffering, or a tale of victory?

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