Jews going to heaven? (2)

[Crazy4Christ]

After all they are God's chosen people right? :o

 

[DennisTate]

After all they are God's chosen people right? :o

A former atheist, art professor Howard Storm had an extensive near death experience in which he was shown both hell as well as heaven. He asked the being of light guy why the holocaust had been allowed to occur and he got an astonishing answer.

I read his book My Descent Into Death about two years ago and I thought it was awesome!

I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. ...."These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."
...
I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart...."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events.// (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)

 

[DennisTate]

According to revelation, there will be 144,000 Jews in heaven.

Isn't this number just from the final year or so of this era previous to the return of Messiah to resurrect the dead??

 

[dogs4thewin]

They go by the same way that the Gentiles do by Jesus.

 

[DennisTate]

They go by the same way that the Gentiles do by Jesus.

True, but isn't it possible for an Orthodox or Chasssidic Jew to have a better understanding of perhaps 70 - 90% of the words and role and ministry of Rabbi Jesus/Yahushua than a Messianic Gentile like myself would have, even without directly understanding how connected Rabbi Jesus was with King David and Psalms 22 and Isaiah 52 and 53???????

 

[Temptinfates]

Nowhere does it say there will only be 144,000 Jews in "heaven". Rev lists 144,000 Jews that will do a work for G-d. This does not mean thats all that will be with G-d. !2,000 from each tribe named. This does not fit into RT people's doctrine. To me, this means Adonai is preserving those bloodlines wheras some people say He is through with the Jews.
Wicked Jews or wicjed Gentiles will not be with Adonai. No matter which you are, it is freewill above race that decides our fate. Those that hate or igmore Adonai their entire lives will not be with him. He will say "Depart, I never knew you". He knows his children-they want to be with him. There id effort on their part towards him every day. These love him, his words, and his ways....not race alone.
Temptinfates

 

[Avodat]

True, but isn't it possible for an Orthodox or Chasssidic Jew to have a better understanding of perhaps 70 - 90% of the words and role and ministry of Rabbi Jesus/Yahushua than a Messianic Gentile like myself would have, even without directly understanding how connected Rabbi Jesus was with King David and Psalms 22 and Isaiah 52 and 53???????

Salvation by Gnosticism?

 

[dogs4thewin]

True, but isn't it possible for an Orthodox or Chasssidic Jew to have a better understanding of perhaps 70 - 90% of the words and role and ministry of Rabbi Jesus/Yahushua than a Messianic Gentile like myself would have, even without directly understanding how connected Rabbi Jesus was with King David and Psalms 22 and Isaiah 52 and 53???????

but just because they understand better does not mean they accept the gift of salvation.

 

[DennisTate]

but just because they understand better does not mean they accept the gift of salvation.

That is a good point AllorNothingAtAll4Christ......

One of the most important characteristics that gets people into heaven is humility and once Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua explains what He accomplished on the cross then they would be responsible to humbly accept what he did.

Howard Storm was shown what Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua did AFTER he technically died.....which sets somewhat of a precedent for Rabbi Jesus to lead somebody to salvation even after their deaths?!?! I think so anyway?!

 

[DennisTate]

Salvation by Gnosticism?

Good question Avodat!

You are certainly correct that knowledge or understanding by themselves will not be enough to make it possible for us to go to heaven?!

On the other hand Dr. Michael Evans had a pretty amazing conversation with Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin many years ago:



The bridge builder - JPost - Magazine - Features

Asked whether he considers himself Jewish or Christian, he says he was initially conflicted about the answer, as he considers himself a Jew who believes in Jesus. He says he was embarrassed to tell Begin about his mixed faith.

“I was a little fearful of [telling my religious beliefs to] Menachem Begin, because I thought, he’s probably going to be embarrassed by me. But he said to me, ‘Don’t be embarrassed. You are a Jew.’ “I said, ‘But this could be a problem for you. I also believe in Jesus.’ “He replied, ‘Look, I believe in the Messiah, too. The only difference is that you know his name and I don’t. Why is it such a big difference between us?’” Evans recalls with a laugh.

In 1979, when Begin said he wanted to endorse Israel: America’s Key to Survival, Evans says he initially refused.

“I said, ‘No! Don’t do it!’ “Begin said, ‘Why not?’ [I said,] because people will criticize you because I believe in Jesus. And besides, there may be things in the book that may embarrass you.”

To this, Evans says Begin responded, “Don’t worry about it. I’m a short prime minister. If I stand on top of newspapers it makes me taller. Besides, today’s news is wrapped in tomorrow’s fish.”

The prime minister went on to endorse the book.

Of his one-time insecurity about his faith, Evans says, “Menachem Begin is the first person who encouraged me to stop apologizing for being a Jew and a Christian. He’d say, ‘You’re a Jew, but you’re a Christian.’ So it’s fine.”

He says he is now at peace with the dichotomy.

 

[Temptinfates]

Possible? Yes. But, it depends on the individual, still. Many people read scripture and cannot work it's simple meaning into their lives. Adonai sees a person and their efforts. Scripture points to him, but it is up to each individual to seek him out. To court him every day. Like you did a girlfriend--so to speak. For some, they must bang on his gates and not be denied. One parable shows this. Religion without spending time seeking him for him alone is vain. You can get dressed, wash, prepare to meet him, but, if you won't go up the mountain, what's the point? And if you want someone else to tell you what he says--then you have missed the whole point of religion. I meet too many people that say that they want to know G-d, but when it starts to get too real for them, they back off. What a waste. Get serious with Adonai and he will get serious with you. If you "wanna do business with him, then do it". Just don't waste his time. When this seeking of him is more important than everything else is what he looks for. When you or I step over that line no matter what it may seem to cost us. At least this has been my experience with him. I tell people I have crossed that line and they don't have a clue what I am talking about---no matter what their supposed level of learning. Do you want him or just need something from him? What if after having an experience with him, he tells you that you are to have a long hard walk with him instead of the sugar gospel? Would you still chase after him? What if his answer is noy what you were expecting? Would you still seek him? My walk is bery hard. There are people in my family that when they pass will try to tell Adonai that he made my walk easy-and that's why I follow him. So, Adonai makes my walk hard. Why? So that when they throw that up in his face he can show them that he made my walk wat harder than theirs. He does this so that they will have no excuse before him. It will be an air-tight case against them. I pray and things happen. But, they think I have a more powerful magic that works against them. They have no idea and can't see or accept Adonai is giving them enough rope to hang themselves. They just laugh that I believe in Adonai. If they only knew. But, I did tell them. And they laughed. So, each person must decide if they want him or not. Will you walk with him if it costs you everything? Some think Adonai is a push-over and they play games with him. I crossed the line and it is hard. So, he said to me "Are you tough? Are you tough enough to walk with me"? "You can walk away......". But, that is not an option. So, I question whether I am that tough sometimes. Why? Because he allows things that challenge my commitment to see if I mean what I say. Do I really want him no matter what as I have prayed so often. Well, he couldn't just let my prayers go unanswered. I know the purpose he is dealing with me on. That is my walk. It;s tough. But, I know that I know that I know that he is with me and watching over me. That is what I prayed for---for many years. Some of the things he has let me know about my family would tear anyone's heart out. Yet, he was truthful to me about it--even though it hurts to know. My walk has a purpose to change things. It;s what he wants from me. So, I do what he wants for his purpose no matter what. Even if I get nothing out of the deal from him. But, he told me "when you need me-I'll be there". I haven;t got there yet, but, I know he will be. So, I do my walk. I got business with him and he has business with me. I don;t have time for people that "play at it". I am very focused on doing what he asked. So, don't think that G-d respects someone's learning more than your effort towards him. He seeks people that really want to do business with him. He told me I am the last one from my lineage that he will try to work with. He is serious. So, my walk affects more than just me. Some people say he isn't like that, but in my particular case, he is very strict, because their is a lot on the line, more than my life alone.
Temptinfates

 

[DennisTate]

Possible? Yes. But, it depends on the individual, still. Many people read scripture and cannot work it's simple meaning into their lives. Adonai sees a person and their efforts. Scripture points to him, but it is up to each individual to seek him out. To court him every day. Like you did a girlfriend--so to speak. For some, they must bang on his gates and not be denied. One parable shows this. Religion without spending time seeking him for him alone is vain. You can get dressed, wash, prepare to meet him, but, if you won't go up the mountain, what's the point? And if you want someone else to tell you what he says--then you have missed the whole point of religion. ......
Temptinfates

Phenomenal comments TemptinFates!!!!!

These Christian believers who live in Islamic nations who risk all to follow Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua are teaching us North Americans something extremely important about how valuable the blood of Rabbi Jesus should be to us!!!!

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3135/muslim-persecution-of-christians-may-2012
Muslim Persecution of Christians: May 2012
"Death to Christians!"
by Raymond Ibrahim
Pakistan: Apostasy, Blasphemy, Rape, Forced Conversions, and Oppression

A 20-year-old Christian man was arrested and charged with "blasphemy"—a crime "punishable with life imprisonment"—after vengeful Muslims accused him of burning a Koran soon after a billiard game. The Muslims kept taunting and threatening him, to which the Christian "dared them to do whatever they wanted and walked away." Days later came the accusation and arrest, which caused Muslim riots, creating "panic among Christians," who "left their houses anticipating violence."

Two years ago, after a Muslim man converted to Christianity and told his wife, she abused and exposed him, resulting in his being severely beaten. "No one was willing to let me live the life I wanted [as a Christian]—they say Islam is not a religion of compulsion, but no one has been able to tell me why Muslims who don't find satisfaction in the religion become liable to be killed." He eventually divorced, escaped, and remarried a Christian woman. Now that his family has again discovered his whereabouts, they have resumed threatening him. According to his wife: "Every other day, we receive threatening phone calls…They are now asking him to abandon us and renounce Christianity, threatening that they will kill me and our child."

A new report indicates that "on average, eight to ten Christians are being forced every month by fanatic Muslims to convert to Islam, mostly in the provinces of Sindh and Punjab. The victims of forced conversions are often girls from poor backgrounds who are then subjected to harrowing and traumatic ordeals. Most of the girls are vulnerable and unable to defend themselves against extremists because their community is deprived, defenseless and marginalized. Christians, who constitute about two percent of the Pakistani population, are paying a high price for being a part of the minority community." Two such cases from May follow:

In an attempt to force her to drop charges against them for raping her 13-year-old niece, a band of Muslims severely beat a pregnant Christian woman causing her to lose female twins to miscarriage. The rapists came when all male members of the Christian household were out working and beat the women "mercilessly." "They murdered our children, they raped our daughter. We have nothing left with us," lamented an older family member. As usual, police ignored both cases: both the raped Christian girl and her beaten family.

 

[yedida]

God sees what is going on, it will not go unpunished. I don't understand how such people can know of the history of the God of Israel and continue to act so stupid. (I don't usually use such a harsh term to describe people but it just fits...)

Sadly, I don't see it getting better, only worse. I can even see it hitting the USA eventually. It's been prophesied. But it will not go unpunished.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I don't know. Seems like if they are doing the things listed here by Paul, they will go to heaven:

Romans 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

 

[Temptinfates]

IF is the biggest word in scripture, lol
Temptinfates

 

[Lulav]

Dennis, why would you bring up a ten year old thread? I'm sure you could start your own on this topic if you wish. This just causes confusion.

 

[merelychristian]

I can't imagine anyone who tried to do God's will not going to heaven. All of us are bound to be mistaken on some theological point. The reality of God is certain to be beyond anything our mortal minds can imagine, so the thing to ask is if we are in a humble enough place to accept the truth when it is finally before us, whether in this life or the next.

 

[Avodat]

I can't imagine anyone who tried to do God's will not going to heaven. All of us are bound to be mistaken on some theological point. The reality of God is certain to be beyond anything our mortal minds can imagine, so the thing to ask is if we are in a humble enough place to accept the truth when it is finally before us, whether in this life or the next.

Have you not yet read Matthew 7?

 

[yedida]

Phaedron is correct, though, in that this plays a huge part in Judaism today. Just FYI.

In the majority of the "sects"? I thought it was within the Chasidic group primarily? It's in the others, Reform? Conservative? Non-Chsidic Orthodox too?

But it certainly doesn't in the MJs statement of faith.....just saying

 

[yonah_mishael]

In the majority of the "sects"? I thought it was within the Chasidic group primarily? It's in the others, Reform? Conservative? Non-Chsidic Orthodox too?

But it certainly doesn't in the MJs statement of faith.....just saying

It's everywhere and very common.