What do Jews think of Christian Zionism? Do you see Christian Zionists as dangerous fanatics, political allies, or what exactly? Thanks for the input.
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Jews and Christian Zionism
- Thread starter jlujan69
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arunma
Flaming Calvinist
I've actually talked to a few Jews about this. They tell me that Jews are very uneasy about the support they receive from Christians. Of course they'll take help from anyone, but they do so hesitantly when it comes from Christians. I believe the Jews I talked to were Reform (if that means anything). Anyway, I am eager to hear some Jewish responses to this.
I'm not even a Zionist, and I aim to convert all Jews to Christianity. If they consider Christian Zionists to be anti-semitic, I shudder to contemplate what they think of me!
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I've actually talked to a few Jews about this. They tell me that Jews are very uneasy about the support they receive from Christians. Of course they'll take help from anyone, but they do so hesitantly when it comes from Christians. I believe the Jews I talked to were Reform (if that means anything). Anyway, I am eager to hear some Jewish responses to this.
I'm not even a Zionist, and I aim to convert all Jews to Christianity. If they consider Christian Zionists to be anti-semitic, I shudder to contemplate what they think of me!
I am not sure about all the different things.
But my (personal) general attitude is to take what i am given, and not ask for it (not humilate myself, but getting humilated). If noone deliberatly gives me anything (edit7: other persons), i will not ask. ....Roughly said. Before, i had different attitudes which has changed accompanied with the accumulation of knowledge as i have grown up. (edit2: And more 'change' by the right circumstances is expected edit6: toward the way defined)
Edit3: But there are exceptions of course
Edit4: And when i am using these words, i am thinking of a progressing "motion".
Theses things go one in each other, so i dont know. Very complicated.
I don't try to convert others into my things. They should deliberately 'come' as ... where will you go? (And it is not bad? ... I am of course) Quote: Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must.
Edit1: But who could survive like that? .... I am lying if i say it is exactly so. Edit5: In exchange for that i say i am muslim by what this name entails.
Edit8: For example:
If whom it conserns tells (obvious, understandable, plain language, directly) me to leave CF, i will. But he should not expect me to leave all by myself, or by "trapping" me, and still get out with it clean (when i act "cleanly" though applying a dirty method). - Go figure.
Edit9: Another example:
If whom it conserns tells (obvious, understandable, plain language, directly) me to leave this institution (which i live in right now) i proudly will. But he should not expect me to leave all by myself, or by "trapping" me, and still get out with it clean (when i act "cleanly" though applying a dirty method). - Go figure.
(And i expect my leaving to not be a problem)
Go (YOU) figure i said. I didn't say i figured out ....Theh....
Me: You can win after finishing the game, not before that. If you quit while we are playing, i will win! (Without having to spend any kind of effort at all) .....Hihihihihi.
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C
czach8
Guest
The ideology of Christian Zionism is not eternal nor is it biblical. True Israel is heaven, not some strip of land that will eventually turn to dust. Christian Zionists are concentrating on the wrong Zion. God specifically said what He will do with Israeli up to the end of the world, for it is His will and His business. All Christians have to do is peacefully follow the Word, not worldly politics.
Peace.
Peace.
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Christian Zionism is idiotic. However, the goal of christianity is to bring the good news to everyone, which includes Jews.
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arunma
Flaming Calvinist
I agree. Everyone who does not believe in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of his or her sins will go to hell, and there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. The problem with Christian Zionism is that it leads to the idea that Jews are a chosen people on the basis of their ethnic lineage (election is based on faith in Jesus Christ, something that religious Jews reject). Ultimately, many Christian Zionists believe that a person who rejects Jesus can be saved simply by virtue of his being Jewish. And that is not Biblical.
As to the issue of Zionism, the Bible teaches that Christians (both Jewish and Gentile) are the rightful heirs to the promises made to the patriarchs, and that we receive this at the second advent of Christ. In the mean time, decisions regarding the state of Israel should be made with respect to international law, and the safety and security of both Israelis and Palestinians. Christians ought not to show favor to either side.
BTW, I would like to make one note to Christian Zionists. There is a Christian population among the Palestinians. So every time you say that God's Chosen are taking their rightful inheritance back from the Gentile thieves, you are condemning your fellow Christian. Please do not love an unbeliever (whether Jewish or Gentile) more than your Christian brother.
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ChavaK
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My husband and I have both worked with Christian Zionists and we do not have any problem with it
at all. We will take any support we can get for
Israel.
In my experience, Orthodox and traditional Jews
are accepting of Christian zionists. It is the
non-religous Jews that seem to be suspicious
of them.
Many Chrisitans are Zionists and are honestly
supporting the state of Israel so Jews can
return to the land, and thus hasten the
return of the Christian messiah. They do not
prosletize Jews and are honest and forth right.
I am sure a percentage (hopefully small) do
prosletize, and that we do have a problem with.
Support for Israel, no trying to convert Jews=
acceptance by the Jewish community (at
least the observant Jews).
at all. We will take any support we can get for
Israel.
In my experience, Orthodox and traditional Jews
are accepting of Christian zionists. It is the
non-religous Jews that seem to be suspicious
of them.
Many Chrisitans are Zionists and are honestly
supporting the state of Israel so Jews can
return to the land, and thus hasten the
return of the Christian messiah. They do not
prosletize Jews and are honest and forth right.
I am sure a percentage (hopefully small) do
prosletize, and that we do have a problem with.
Support for Israel, no trying to convert Jews=
acceptance by the Jewish community (at
least the observant Jews).
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arunma
Flaming Calvinist
Yes, it is true that a lot of fundamentalist Christians believe that the return of Jews to Israel will hasten the second advent of Christ. Jlujan, do you happen to know what Scriptures people cite in support of this? Because I have yet to understand why the existence of a secular state of Israel is a necessary condition for the return of Christ, or why people believe that said state is even prophesied in Scripture (I've seen some "proof texts," but they are shaky at best).
While I am not specifically opposed to the existence of the state of Israel, and perhaps could even support it for purely political reasons, I feel that this whole movement is founded on an uncertain theological basis.
While I am not specifically opposed to the existence of the state of Israel, and perhaps could even support it for purely political reasons, I feel that this whole movement is founded on an uncertain theological basis.
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You're referring to dual covenant theology, and you're right. It's not biblical. Jews get saved in the same way as everyone else. I wasn't aware that belief in dual covenant theology is that prevalent among Christian Zionists. Is it really? I know that John Hagee and Jerry Falwell were accused of supporting that doctrine, yet they denied it.
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I'm not aware of any fundamentalist dispensational churches that believe that somehow our actions on Earth can affect God's timetable. Rather, we see the End Times events as foreordained by God.
Arunma, this link may be of help. I haven't examined every verse here and it's possible that some of these are the "shakey" passages you described. Anyway, for your cogitation.
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There is a documentary about this calling it an "unholy alliance".
Peace
yaqovzadeek
aka james the Just
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Are you kidding or something?
Think. Why would G_d care in any way about you if you dont care about him.
Calling for gods aid.
Firstly against what.
Secondly you could'nt 'sucsessfully' recieve G_d's blessing by violating his teachings. (it is like a mutual relationship, you do this and he do that. And both gets well pleased. If you ignore him, he need noone, while you need him)
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C
czach8
Guest
So basically what you are saying is that it is ok to use Christian Zionists for your own agendas, but then you have a problem if they discuss Jesus with you. Well if Christian Zionists want to secure your material blessings and ignore Christ for the time being, then that is their choice. I personally feel they are wasting their time, and the Jewish state of Israel does not need their help anyway because they can easily take care of themselves. In any case, the only support Christian Zionists are giving is basically all talk.
Peace.
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It is not, OK for me and not for others. Cuz i am going to hell. What will you do when i go to hell at the day of juddgment?
THE difference is i acknowledge that. Not lying. (And i accept the consequences of my actions now, before G_ds threat)
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arunma
Flaming Calvinist
It would be interesting to ask who is really using whom, because I've heard this charge coming from both sides. One might think that the Jews are just using and discarding fundamentalist Christians for their political advantage. But as ChavaK said, there are many secular Jews who are opposed to this alliance with the fundamentalists. They see fundamentalist Christians as using Jews to further their end times fanaticism.
Personally I doubt that either the Jews or the Christians have any malicious intent. Rather, I sense that both groups are operating on a faulty theological basis. On the Christian side, there is no theological necessity for a secular state called "Israel" to exist in order for Christ to return, since the church of Jesus Christ is, and always has been, the true Israel. For over 1,800 years of church history, there was no Israel, and it was never a problem to Christians. As for the Jews, I don't know much about Jewish doctrine or theology, but if I were a Jew I might have a problem with receiving support from someone in the name of a person whom I believe to be a false messiah. Many fundamentalist Christians seem to be eluded by the fact that there is just no place for our Lord Jesus Christ within Judaism, since the Jewish religion and Christianity are essentially antithetical.
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ChavaK
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Sorry, I don't have a clue what you are talking about.
The OP wanted to know what Jews thought about
Christian Zionists, and I answered his question.
If your posts relates to that, please clarify it.
Otherwise, I think it is side tracking the thread...
chava
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arunma
Flaming Calvinist
Sorry, I don't have a clue what you are talking about.
The OP wanted to know what Jews thought about
Christian Zionists, and I answered his question.
If your posts relates to that, please clarify it.
Otherwise, I think it is side tracking the thread...
It's not just you. When I read Deepsey's first post, I had no idea what he was trying to say to me.
Deepsey, I don't say this with any intent to be rude: you may want to take the time to write clearer posts in the future.
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ChavaK
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Groups in general work together for a mutual benefit,
as well as for their own needs. It could just as easily
be said the Christians are using us for their agenda
of trying to hasten the return of their messiah.
I choose to believe that we can work together in
friendship and mutual benefit. If you see otherwise,
fine by me.
I have found that Christian Zionists have raised
money for Israel, made donations of clothing, food
and medical supplies, as well as supported tourism
which is important to Israel's economy. Nothing
wrong with a little talking either.
Also, the OP was asking about what Jews thought
about Christian Zionists. So far I am the only
one to answer...sorry if you disagree with my
opinion.
chava
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