Jesus Made Grape Juice???

[jimmyjimmy]

Did Jesus turn water into wine or grape juice? Did Jesus drink wine?

It seems that there are some who actually think that wine wasn't really wine 2,000 years ago. Where do people get such ideas from?

 

[mmksparbud]

"Wine has been made in Israel since at least Biblical times but until recently, there was no reason to be proud of it. The wines shipped to ancient Egypt were so bad that they had to be seasoned with honey, pepper and juniper berries to make them palatable, and those sent to Rome and England in the Roman period were so thick and sweet that no modern connoisseur would possibly have approved of them. So bad were most of these wines that it was probably a good thing that the Muslim conquest in 636 imposed at least an official 1,200 year halt to local wine production."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Food/winetoc.html



\ From: Eddie Chumney
To: heb_roots_chr@geocities.com
Subject: Wine in Biblical Times


"There are two Hebrew used translated as "wine" in our English
Bible. The first word is the Strong's word (3196) and is the Hebrew
word, "yayin". This is alcoholic wine.

The second word is the Strong's word (8492). It is the Hebrew
word "tiyrosh". This is non-alcoholic grapejuice or sweet wine. This
is the type of wine that would have been used at Passover -
non-alcoholic wine. This kind of wine is often called in the Bible
"new wine".

While "Yayin" is declared "kosher for Passover" today,
Yeshua/Jesus would have partook of "Tiyrosh" at His seder. This is the
sweet non-alcoholic wine that is called in the Bible "new wine" and
"sweet wine". "Tiyrosh" is associated with the outpouring of God's
Holy Spirit.

The contrast between "Yayin" and "Tiyrosh" can be seen in
Joel. In Joel 1:5 it is written:

"Awake, ye drunkards and weep and howl, all ye drinkers of wine
(Yayin) ..."

In Joel 2:18-19, 24:

"Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea,
the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send the
corn and wine (Tiyrosh) and oil and ye shall be satisfied ... and the
floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine
(Tiyrosh) and oil"

In Isaiah 65:8 it is written:

"Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine (Tiyrosh) is found in the
cluster ..."

In Proverbs 20:1 it is written:

"Wine (Yayin) is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is
deceived thereby is not wise"

So, we can see in these passages the contrast between
"Yayin" (alcoholic wine) which is used in a negative connotation and
"Tiyrosh" (non-alcoholic sweet, new wine) which is spoken of in a
positive connotation. Most assuredly, Yeshua/Jesus would have drank of
the "sweet wine" or "Tiyrosh"."
http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/9904/9904_rr.html

 

[JackRT]

Did Jesus turn water into wine or grape juice? Did Jesus drink wine?

It seems that there are some who actually think that wine wasn't really wine 2,000 years ago. Where do people get such ideas from?

In biblical times wine was fermented to the maximum of 16%. At that concentration the alcohol actually kills the yeast. This was called strong drink. However the wine was cut with water to bring down the alcohol content to 5 to 8%. Grape juice would only be available a few weeks a year during and just following harvest season. Beyond that time the wild yeasts would already be turning the juice into wine. Distillation of alcohol was not known until about the twelfth century.

 

[Shane R]

Did Jesus turn water into wine or grape juice? Did Jesus drink wine?

It seems that there are some who actually think that wine wasn't really wine 2,000 years ago. Where do people get such ideas from?

Have you heard the one where they say the Jews made grape jelly and then later reconstituted it to a drinkable consistency with water? That's one that gets passed now and then in Church of Christ circles.

I have always thought that for Matthew's assertion that the Pharisees and scribes were calling Jesus a drunkard and glutton to make any sense, he must have been observed eating and drinking (wine).

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

In first century culture, they tended to water wine 1 part wine to 4 parts water to about a maximum of 10 parts water. Wine was seldom if ever drunk neat.

Fruit juice could not be stored, so inevitably became wine a short period after harvest. Even the 'new wine' mentioned above was alcoholic, just not such a high percentage as an intentionally fermented wine.

Unless Passover fell in harvest (it does not) then the wine would have been an alcoholic beverage, although a much watered down one to our wines.

 

[Greg J.]

As a young adult I was allowed to drink, but didn't like any alcoholic drinks, so I didn't drink alcohol. I never experienced the consequences of an alcoholic family member or friend. I had no preference on what God said about drinking alcohol, so I think I had a unusual neutrality about it when reading Scripture. (However, there are lots of people who have suffered terribly because a family member was an alcoholic.)

There are multiple places in Scripture that say straight out or imply that drinking too much wine is unwise and/or sinful. If one accepts that God was serious about that, then it is easier to see what I saw in Scripture: Alcoholic drinks were a gift to us from God. But need to be used within God's boundaries. An analogous example is sex. Sex is a gift from God, but there's an awful lot in Scripture about keeping it within God's boundaries. It is not OK for an alcoholic to drink (depending on the definition of alcoholic). At the very least it may be unwise for that person.

Anyone can find evidence in Scripture for whatever they want to believe, so I'm not going to cite verses. This has been a well (and sometimes poorly) researched issue already and Google will help you find whatever you want. To be certain of there being no bias in what you read, you may have to just keep this issue in mind as you read the whole Bible.

Note: there is nothing wrong with a church or denomination requiring abstinence from alcohol (or sex), but I liken teaching that God says it is required to be asking for a millstone to be tied around the teacher's neck and thrown into the sea (Matthew 18:6).

 

[DamianWarS]

"Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."
John 2:10 ESV

To me I infer the wine to be alcoholic. I always read this verse with the suspicion that people were already a little tipsy.

Sent from my Passport using Tapatalk

 

[jimmyjimmy]

"Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."
John 2:10 ESV

Too me I infer the wine to be alcoholic. I always read this verse with the suspicion that people were already a little tipsy.

Sent from my Passport using Tapatalk

It plainly reads that way on both counts.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

In first century culture, they tended to water wine 1 part wine to 4 parts water to about a maximum of 10 parts water. Wine was seldom if ever drunk neat.

Fruit juice could not be stored, so inevitably became wine a short period after harvest. Even the 'new wine' mentioned above was alcoholic, just not such a high percentage as an intentionally fermented wine.

Unless Passover fell in harvest (it does not) then the wine would have been an alcoholic beverage, although a much watered down one to our wines.

I wonder if you might volunteer to test your theory. Get some 13-15% alcohol wine (normal percentage) and mix 1 oz to 4 oz of water, and report back what it tastes like.