Jesus is a God of conditional Love, not unconditional love. (3)

razzelflabben said:

I don't disagree with this, but I do disagree with the extent to which so people interpret these passage. For example, some people read these passages and say, opps, can't talk about the game last night because that would be wrong....or can't discuss the differences in scriptural understanding because that would be foolish disputes. I personally find there to be a balance in scripture on these matters. (more from examples than from specific passages) for example in this thread, after it became apparent that certain parts of this discussion were not gonna be addressed by certain posters, I stopped posting replies to them after I was confident I was clear in what I was saying. If new arguments were presented, no problem, but when the same old tired non listening stuff came up, I just ignored it. In this way, I can be sure that I am above reproach in my presentation of scripture (clear communication) and at the same time, not be a part of foolish disputes. Others think that the second or third time an issue arrises, it's foolish dispute, but then how do you know your communication is clear? Personally I think there is a balance and I'm better that occasionally, Jesus and the disciples talked about the football game, but the focus on their lives was spiritual life.

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Here is what is good in Ozell's posts. In American around 70% believe that they will go to heaven when they die. The actual percentage, according to a consensus of several efforts to learn prophetically, is much, much lower. 99% at least, are in the "Lord, Lord" category, in for a terrible surprise on judgement day. Why? In part, because they have been confused by the "unconditional love of God" claim, and interpret it to mean that they will be saved even though they are at best luke-warm in their lawfullness. Ozell hopes to dispell this confusion, and since Jesus never uses the term "unconditional love" we are indeed asking for confusion when we try to use different words than Him. Our efforts, of course, are to encourage those who have fallen into sin to turn back to God, hoping that He has not utterly forsaken them. But how should we say this? Ozell says, and the scriptures I noted confirm, that the term "unconditional" has been hijacked by the evil one, and puts luke-warm believers to sleep. For every seeker we encourage, we lose a hundred backsliders.

In a Razzelflabben post, we have my quote,

how is it a constant reminder of keeping the commandments for salvation? Salvation and love are not the same thing, therefore keeping the commands as they relate to salvation should not be part of this discussion...so how then is it good to continue to take us off topic, even for a biblical truth?

The command we have is, "Hear everything, prove (or hold onto) what is good." There is a lot to overlook in Ozell's (or my, for that matter) posts. But what is good? Reminding folks that if they don't keep the commandments, they do not have salvation, and to think otherwise is to deceive themselves. Now, your posts are more on thread, and what is good there is your emphasis on rightly dividing the word of truth, "love." According to the wisdom of scripture, rightly dividing words of truth, starting with love, is the sine qua non of the highway to holiness. The first commandment that must be kept, before all others. (It is the first act of "keeping" commandments, since commandments are made of words. The first act of evil--Prov 2:12--is to speak perverse things.)

No one can stay "on topic" if they are not keeping the commandments, starting with the one you keep bringing up. So, both you and Ozell are offering some essential good for others to hold on to.

ozell said:

Sister

if we are blessed enough to obtain salvation then God has loved us from the time we start obeying to the time he redeems us!!

open up that mind of your and learn the whole plan of God!!!

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that doesn't even come close to addressing what I said, sometimes I wonder why you speak at all, you never seem to address any of the issues you are presented with.

ozell said:

let me touch on the Holy Spirit again, for some here who think they understand how he operates.

lets read so God's word wil be a witness against you who think they understand the HS.


one of the jobs of the HS is to guide you into all truth

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

lets read some truth

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

now Jesus said if you love him keep his commandments, the same Jesus said the Spirit of truth will will guide you in ALL truth. YET YOU ALL REALLY DON'T BELEIVE THIS.

lets read some more

1 John 5:2-4


2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.



the truth is that God love us when we keep his commandments

the same person who wrote the spirit of truth will guide you into all truth also wrote that God love us when we keep his commandments


what is truth?

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

the same person who wrote
1 John 5:2-4


2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

and

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

said that the HS will

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

told us to be sanctified(separated by truth)

this is what the HS will give us!!

GOD'S TRUTH!!!

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so now you want to change the topic to the HS? How can we keep up if you keep changing the topic to everything but God's love for man?

Again, Razzelflabben quotes me,

interesting claim...only problem is, I only know of one poster that has broken the commandments on this thread. We all have in our lives, but on this thread, I only know of one. Sometimes (as that poster says) truth is difficult to hear, but when scripture calls us a liar it is not a breaking of the commandments to point that out. So question...are you judging here? Trying to stir up anger, which is according to I Cor. 13 not love?

Now, we have the commandment to rebuke the unruly. By unruly, we mean, I believe, those who do what they think makes sense, without playing by the rules. So, in my quote, what commandment was I keeping? Or was I "unruly?" I thought I was in fact warning or rebuking the unruly, or lazy, who "under-criticize" their own posts. They know that keeping the commandments is important, but go on to post things that have little apparent direct connection to a commandment.

Ok, Razz, your turn. Examine your comment, and tell us what commandments you were keeping in your statements.

groktruth said:

Here is what is good in Ozell's posts. In American around 70% believe that they will go to heaven when they die. The actual percentage, according to a consensus of several efforts to learn prophetically, is much, much lower. 99% at least, are in the "Lord, Lord" category, in for a terrible surprise on judgement day. Why? In part, because they have been confused by the "unconditional love of God" claim, and interpret it to mean that they will be saved even though they are at best luke-warm in their lawfullness.

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scripture addresses the luke warm believer, seems to me the answer is NOT to change scripture into saying God's love is conditional, but rather in teaching the totality of scripture in opposition to teaching only the parts that make people feel good. In fact, I know many people who fail to live in God's love and grace because of teaching like Ozell's and others here have said so as well. Point is, we don't change scripture to fit what others may or may not understand, but rather we allow all of scripture to shape us and guide us and teach us truth. When we change scripture as Ozell does, all we do is create an environment in which Satan has more opportunity to deceive. Not wise, and totally against scripture to do so.

Ozell hopes to dispell this confusion, and since Jesus never uses the term "unconditional love" we are indeed asking for confusion when we try to use different words than Him.

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Two points here. 1. there is an old saying, two wrongs don't make a right. Telling people a lie about God's love doesn't stop the lies Satan throws at people to get them all off track with God and His truths. and 2. Many many many times now, the idea of unconditional love has been presented as it is shown in scripture. There are many words that we use that did not originally exist in the bible but express a truth today. In fact, no english words existed in the bible in the beginning. Therefore, every word we read in english from the Bible every truth we speak, falls into this category of idea over specific word. To make this argument hold water would be to remove all english understanding and we couldn't be communicating at all about the bible. Words do have meanings and so do Ideas and they are expressed through words. Now one thing I have been trying to get Ozell to see is that not all his ideas are flawed, but rather the flaw is in his chosen wording and what those words mean. Instead of talking about what these things mean, he insistes he is right and everyone else is wrong but has no understanding of the words he presents. Anyway, Ozell isn't the point here, so back to the point. The idea of unconditional love is more than evidenced in scripture. The word may not, but the idea is without doubt.

Our efforts, of course, are to encourage those who have fallen into sin to turn back to God, hoping that He has not utterly forsaken them.

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without doubt, but we can't do that by teaching false doctrine, in fact, it is only in teaching truth that they even have a chance at restoration.

But how should we say this? Ozell says, and the scriptures I noted confirm, that the term "unconditional" has been hijacked by the evil one, and puts luke-warm believers to sleep. For every seeker we encourage, we lose a hundred backsliders.

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So if you really believe this, then explain to me the truth here. Unconditional love as has been well documented and described, means that God loves everyone enough to offer them salvation. Salvation is conditional. What part of that, encourages someone to think that they don't have to do anything to be saved?

Let's get even more specific as has been repeatedly done on this thread. Scripture tells us that God loves everyone even when they were enemies of God. So God offers to all men, out of that great love, salvation. But salvation is a conditional thing and requires us to both repent and to obey the commands of God. If we do this, if we repent of our sin and obey God's commands, we dwell in His love and His love dwells in us. This salvation is a demonstration of the unconditional love of God, a love that judges us, provides for us, corrects us, is just towards us, but a love that does not vanish every time we make a mistake.

Now take what is said above of God's unconditional love and show me how someone listening to what is being said (key word listening) can twist that to mean that I don't have to do anything to go to heaven because there are no consequences to sin....in fact, the consequences of sin were also discussed in depth as they relate to living in God's unconditional love vs. living in a conditional love.

Point being, we can't change scripture to try to correct misuses of idea and concepts that have invaded our churches. Scripture is truth and to teach something that is contrary to it is false teaching which is a very nasty thing according to scripture.