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Jesus is a God of conditional Love, not unconditional love. (3)

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razzelflabben

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ozell said:
we have some people on this thread who obviously don't understand the lake of fire!!!

would you put your family in the lake of fire who you say you love?
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do you own a lake of fire for us to throw our children in? Point being Ozell, the lake of fire is not for us to throw our children in, it is for those who refuse to accept forgiveness from God. Man's equivalent is trying to stop a child from getting hit by a car by instructing the child to not play in the street.
do you really believe Jesus will put the people he love in the lake of fire?
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No, the people will put themselves in the lake of fire, that is what love is all about. Love gives us a way to avoid the consequence of sin. Love gives us a way out of that fire. Whether we take that way out or not is up to us. Love offers that way out, love exists whether or not we accept the remedy for sin.
 
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Light hearted

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ozell said:
LH

wow!

our level of understanding is very vast.

I don't keep animal sacrifice nor do I teach other to.

The only law that was replaced on the cross is animal sacrifice.
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Lets start with idea that the only thing that changed with Jesus taking a major beating, and torture and a hanging is the idea that He replaced the animal sacrifice and that was it. Lets put this into perspective.

I have been through the ot a few times, never ever do I remember God saying to Moses, "thou shall beat and torture the animal" no, I didn't think you would remember that either. But surely God authorized Jesus to go through it. Hmmm perhaps it is the beating we should have for our transgressions? Thank you Jesus!!!

As I recall.. the Israelite merely placed his hand on the animal, and miraculously the sin was transfered to the animal and the animal was made an atonement for him. How can you understand that concept of sin being transfered from man to animal. Obviously it is a spiritual concept, but you cannot understand the concept of man's sin being transfered into Jesus body. Come on Ozell, you can do this.

Let's move on.. Let's read in acts where Stephen was the first recorded and stoned for preaching the Gospel. "Good news everybody, we have a great new covenant, it is a covenant that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, has made a everlasting atonement for your sins. Freedom has come to earth, ect, ect". Do what,? we the readers of the law are going to be out of a job? Out with him they yelled, and stone him to death. Wait, is that Saul (soon to be transformed to the name Paul) standing there with a grin on his face.

Ozell's idea, Jesus replaced the animal sacrifice and that's it. Stephen publically announcing that there is no more animal sacrifice, yet all the law is fully intact. "Listen everyone, Jesus replaced the animal sacrifice in one day, hurray, no more dragging an animal for miles, no more blood and guts to clean up for thousands of sacrifices every year". Now the law readers rejoice and raise Stephen, set him up in a high tower. Yeahhhhhh. It didn't happen this way now did it Ozell?


Jesus only changed the animal sacrifice,I don't think so, notice. Jesus writings before his sacrifice. Covenant of law.
  1. Matthew 6:14
    " For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
  2. Matthew 6:15
    "But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Notice you have to do the forgiving before Father will forgive you. If you DO NOT forgive, Father God WILL NOT forgive you.


New covenant. After Jesus death, it is a time perspective here Ozell. Before and after Jesus death. People are forgiven by God, before hand.

New American Standard Bible
Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

Belief in Jesus Christ puts you in rightstanding with God for Jesus did the work to make you right. God HAS ALREADY forgiven you before you have forgiven. Old covenant requires you to forgive first, then God will forgive you.

Oh yeah, major changes between animal to Jesus sacrifice.

Wait, is this Saul who is now Paul who is preaching the new Gospel? Oh wait, now he's also taking a stoning, he's also in prison for years. Now according to Ozell, just because he announced "no more animal sacrifice". Goes much deeper than replacing an animal as an atonement.

It's the transformation that occurs when a loving God, sends His spirit to dwell within you. You just have to believe and accept the Grace.
 
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ozell said:
LH


I sin Brother,

all men have sinned,

I pray and ask for fogiveness

all men don't ask for forgiveness
Click to expand...

Let me understand this concept. If I may quote your quote.."I sin Brother".

Ozell, in no way am I here to denounce you. What you said is most excellent. That is the very first step to finding true Grace that is available to you. Grace is something you DID NOT work for. On the other had following the law, is you doing the work, it would be a paycheck if you were to recieve Grace. Then again, it wouldn't be Grace, because you worked for it.

In your theology, correct me if I am wrong, God hates those who sin, have transgressions against God. Ok, if you say that following the commandments are not grievous, how is it that you sin. Following the law should be a breeze, remember you should always practice what you preach.

Also, once you sin, you are now an enemy of God. Are you relying on the abundant mercy and LOVE that God has for mankind to put you back in right standing with Him? Hmmm, all you you have to do is pray... sounds like unconditional love starting to brew here. Unless you are the one special person on earth, I figure this unconditional love is extended to everybody, now isn't it?

Nope, all men do not pray and ask for forgiveness, these men are not considered "sons of God". You ask, would God throw his son's into the lake of fire? I say nope. Many are not sons of God, new testament reads.

43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him.( When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

Verse 44 You are of your father the devil. If one is considered a child here one would be a child of the devil, not of God.

So you continuously repeat over and over and over and over, about children, lets put the children with their proper father. Each father will receive their proper children. Let's let the two fathers deal with each their own children.

You worry about which father is yours. Have you humbled yourself, and put away the hand written commandments and come to Grace through Jesus Christ. God stuffed them into the ark and placed them within Jesus, are you ready to be a part of Jesus through Faith alone, aside from your works?
 
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ozell said:
LH


I sin Brother,

all men have sinned,

I pray and ask for fogiveness

all men don't ask for forgiveness

if you have faith in Jesus you would do everything Jesus say do, correct?

then you would keep his commandments!


what do you think?
Click to expand...

Ozell, without the commandments and the rest of the law we would not know the sins that we are guilty of. Yet you admittandly say you do sin. The only way you know you sin is that the commandments and law tells you that you have sinned.

By admitting you are a sinner you have not kept Jesus commandment that you keep posting the verse of keeping His commandments. So by your logic, God hates you, yes you, you didn't keep all commandments, God hates you.

You by your logic, you have total control of God's love for you. I say shame on you for thinking you have control over anything of God's power and authority. You can sin which is your choice, God hates you. You ask for forgiveness, when you have time, and God loves you. You repeat this cycle every day, that's 7 times a week, times 365 times a year, times how many times a lifetime. Wow, how does he keep score?

Nope, God keeps the love door open always for you. It's always accessable, once you recieve Grace through Jesus Christ, you recieve the Holy Spirit, it is your guarantee to heaven, (eph 1:13).

This is all do to your faith in Jesus alone, aside from your works.

Just how much does Faith and Grace cover??? Let's turn to romans 3:31

Once you are truely saved and someone posts the law and tries to condemn you through the law. Or tries to say what a sinner you are because you don't put the law above Grace. Or now that you say you are under Grace that you can now sin all you want because you are under Grace.

You stand up and tell them " I do better than just try to follow the law!!!! I am wayyyy beyond a follower of the law, I am a fullfiller of the law!!!

You law followers, I say turn to Romans 3:31
New Living Translation (NLT)
31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

King James Version (KJV)


31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

New American Standard Bible (NASB)



31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Multiple versions to make sure we don't have a translation dispute.

There you go, our biggest commandment is to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, after that you are also a Son of God. Through Him, who is also in me, all the commandments are taken care of. Have I followed His commandment of following the commandments, absolutly, and more.

Unconditional love, oh yeah. God/Jesus, created the laws that declare us sinners, enenies of God. Then sends Jesus down to fulfill the same laws He used against us. Wow, that's like a courtroom where you are positively guilty and sentenced to a beating instead of a fine, and LIFE in prison, but through his never ending mercy, the Judge asks for his cellphone, calls his own son, and says "son, I've got a convicted man (sinner) here, and for whatever reason, I love him so much, I'll have you take a beating and go to jail for him and he will live a free man. Son replies to father judge,"father judge, if's it's your will, I will do it."

I ask you Ozell, to really think about this story, would you not weep, would you not bow to this son. Would you not forever be humbled to what this son did for you. Would you not have a deep, deep love for this son. Would you realize that no matter how hard you work, no matter how obedient, no matter what you do, you could never come close to repaying what this son did for you.

This is just a mere speck of what God has done to show His unconditional love for you Ozell. He has done this before you were born, 2000 years ago. Ozell, your work is a mere speck of a speck to him. To you it is a mountain, but He can move your mountain with a flick of a finger. It's your heart he wants, that means the world. As a matter of fact, if he lost you spiritually, and there were 100 of you, and you became lost, He'd leave the other 99 and come look for you, yes you alone, after all you are now His child. Was it your works that brought you back, nope, he's chasing for you, you just got to turn your heart and you're in His arms.

This my friend is the Gospel in a nutshell, for you a sinner, convicted and and on a oneway trip to hell, God puts a detour sign up for you. It reads "this way to Jesus". Your already going down the road of life, it's takes nothing to turn to Jesus. As a matter of fact, I think the turn is more of a off ramp and not a stop sign. Now you don't even have to hit the brake pedal, (reguires no work), it's smooth sailing down Holy Spirit highway.

Need I go to the prodical son.... nahhh I'll leave that one alone.
 
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ozell said:
LH


The only law that was replaced on the cross is animal sacrifice.

I sin Brother,

all men have sinned,

I pray and ask for fogiveness

what do you think?
Click to expand...

Let's look closely at the chain of events that happened when you say the only law that was replaced was the animal sacrifice.

Do you go to a temple or a tent that contain the ark of God?

Do you take your prayers of forgiveness to a High Priest?

Do you yourself walk into a room called the most Holy Place?

If you did walk into the Most Holy Place, how fast would you be put to death?

Are a true Levite, they were the only allowed to have any access to God?

Yup, there were alot more that just a substitude sacrifice here.

No animal sacrifice offered ever tore the heavy veil seperating the Holy place from the Most Holy place. Let alone tore it from the top to the bottom, instead of tearing from the bottom to the top.

This sacrifice of Jesus did what no animal could ever do. His sacrifice gave you access to the one Holy God.

Once you really look deeply into your freedom and free access to God, you will never say that Jesus took the place of an animal and that's all that changed.

Shall I go into the whole Holy Spirit thing again?? I figure you got the idea by now.
 
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groktruth

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BiblebelievingChristian said:
There is no sin that is so great that God won't forgive if we repent and sincerely ask for His forgiveness. That's how God's love is unconditional.
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"Prepare ye the way of the Lord!" declared John the Baptiser. So, what is the way of repentance? How many perish for lack of knowledge, because they will not learn what the Lord wants them to know?

"I can say, 'I repent!' But if I am ignorant of what I must do to bring forth fruits appropriate to repentance, maybe I will be saved anyway, without having to really be transformed, changed."

Yeah, right.

Is it possible to "sincerely" ask for forgiveness, without doing all we can to sorrow over our sin, make restitution, make the way smooth for the weak limb. Walk with another so that we no longer fall into the sin?
 
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groktruth

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SelectedHypocrite said:
Man you guys put a lot of effort into arguing.

I cant believe yall would argue about this for over 2000 posts. Seriously?

I bet neither one of you has moved an inch from your original standpoints.
Click to expand...

A rebuke, that few or none are letting the light of their repentance shine here. Plenty of judgement of others, correction. Is that light?

What we know is that God is grieved by sin, and rejoices in repentance. So, choose what gift you will give Him.

As for me, the posts from Razzelflabben have resulted in my prayers containing many fewer uses of the word, "I." And Ozell has raised my hopes that the commandments of the Lord (see teaching by Bill Gothard) will become a more frequent part of the teaching of those seeking to grow in God. As Jesus commanded. Anyone else repenting, changing?
 
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razzelflabben

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Not so much because of this thread, but because of the wonderful unconditional love of God, we are learning to humble ourselves even more, especially through the death of our son, which may sound crazy, but that loss taught us to be more humble, thus learning more to love and be loved.
 
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ozell

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God said his children will die like men?

why would the God who loves everyone kill his children or let them die?

Psalms 82:
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
 
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razzelflabben

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ozell said:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of tHe tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
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yep....and your point....?
 
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razzelflabben

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you do realize don't you? that there are two deaths, the physical death and the spiritual death....
 
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BiblebelievingChristian

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BiblebelievingChristian said:
There is no sin that is so great that God won't forgive if we repent and sincerely ask for His forgiveness. That's how God's love is unconditional.
Click to expand...

ozell said:


the bible say if you blaspheme the holy ghost what is the conditions?
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We sin against the Holy Spirit if we die unrepentant of our sins. Would it make any sense to expect God to forgive someone who doesn't want His forgiveness? As long as we are alive we have the opportunity to receive God's forgiveness if we repent and sincerely ask for His forgiveness. God's unconditional love is in His willingness to always forgive us no matter how big the sin when we repent and sincerely ask for His forgiveness.
 
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Hairy Tic

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groktruth said:


Maybe it is only me, but the confusing statement, "God's love is conditional." is such a stumbling block.
Click to expand...
## If God's love is conditional, the New Testament is not a message of hope, but of condemnation, because no one keeps - no one can keep - the commandments. So the entire human race is damned. So countless billions who have trusted in the unconditional love of God will have lived like cattle being prepared against the day of slaughter, fancying that they will enter upon an eternity of bliss, only to to be rudely disillusioned when they awake in Hell to an eternity of everlasting fire. And that is supposed to be Good News ?

Love is not conditional - as well might one talk of flaming water, or freezing fire. Least of all can - not man's, but - God's Love be conditional when we sin, because that is when God's Love is needed most of all. Unless God loves sinners, even in the midst of their sins, there is no Gospel. They cannot repent, any more than jump over the moon, unless God first come to them in His Love.


The first commandment of our Lord is to repent. Now we are all looking to see if you "keep" that commandment.
Click to expand...


 
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ozell

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and if we die in our sins, unrepentant, unforgiving, , not believing, then what?

where is the unconditional love for those who meet this criteria?


Exodus 32:32-34


32Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
34Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
 
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ozell

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Ezekiel 18:19-21
19Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.



Exodus 32:32-34
32Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33And the LORD said unto Moses,Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

34Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

Deuteronomy 9:13-15
3Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

14Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they. 15So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands


Revelation 20:14-15
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

The God of unconditional love throwing people who names is not found in the book of life in a lake of fire?
 
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ozell

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1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
 
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ozell

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so the people cast themselves into the lake of fire?

Revelation 20:14-15
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

your GOD LOVES EVERYBODY AND EVERYTHING!

whether God or the people put themselves in the lake of fire, Your God will not let this happen because he loves everyone and everything, his love is suppose to be unconditional!!
 
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BiblebelievingChristian

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ozell said:
and if we die in our sins, unrepentant, unforgiving, , not believing, then what?

where is the unconditional love for those who meet this criteria?
Click to expand...
If I offer you unconditional love and you reject it whose fault would that be? And would your rejection of my offer of unconditional love mean that the unconditional love never existed?
 
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ozell

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and when you die in your sins and have not repented even upon death,
will the God of unconditional love raise you us into his kingdom at the resurrection?

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


what is sin?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

what death is Jesus speaking of? was it the first death that comes upon all men

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

or is it the second death that come upon the sinner and wicked

Revelation 20:13-15
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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