Jesus' First Miracle. A Thought...

[Stewartnz]

“Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.”
(Philippians 4:5)

Concerning Jesus’ first miracle -- turning the water into wine at the marriage feast in Cana. (John 2:1-11) On that occasion there were six water-pots of about 20 gallons each, and these were all filled “to the brim” with water. Jesus changes that water into "wine", and thus He supplied the people with about 120 gallons of it.

If that wine was fermented, intoxicating, wine, then it seems to me that Jesus destroys even the worldly notion of 'drinking in moderation'. If on that occasion He provided alcohol for the people, then rather than encouraging moderation in such circumstances, He encourages excess.

The "wine" was provided toward the end of the celebrations when the people had almost exhausted their supply, and now suddenly here is a large new supply. Again, if it was all intoxicating wine, then He openly encourages drunken excess and revelry... (And what reason would there be for us, not to supply alcohol to those in need? Jesus sets the pattern for us to follow.)

But do we hear the drunken cheers? No. Alcohol is a mocker, and there is no honor in the work of a mocker. Whatever Jesus did, He did it to the glory of God. Can any semblance of drunken revelry glorify God? Never.

________
Stewart

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I agree that the wine at the marraige feast was grape juice for some of the reasons you pointed out.

Even though I don't drink, I do believe that fermented wine was drank and was not prohibited. Excess consumption and drunkedness, yes, but social, I don't see the arguement against.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Just a point of historical fact, wedding feasts in those days lasted a week...

 

[k4c]

I believe the wine at the wedding was fermented.

The way the wedding master defines it. He tells Jesus he saved the best wine for last.

Fermented wine would be determined to be good by its age, its color And its taste. grape juice is not defined this way.

Secondly, we don't know how many people were at this wedding or for how long it was gonna last.

A deacon is not to be given much wine. That's not grape juice.

The bible tells us not to drink wine or eat meat in front of a weaker brother. This is not a grape juice either.

They had wine the lord's supper and the people who drank it got drunk. That's not grape juice.

 

[OntheDL]

There are 19 different Hebrew and Greek words in OT and in NT that were translated as 'wine'. If in one instance it can be determined by context it's fermented, it doesn't mean the next instance is fermented automatically. We have to look at them by context.

I don't believe Jesus turned water into fermented wine either do I subscribe to moderationism.

Wine is a harmful substance not because of quantity but because of its nature. Who determines the quantity??? If the Jesus who inspires the writing of 'wine is a mocker'...'it bites like a serpent' and the mind perversions it induces turned water in to intoxicating wine when the people were probably already drunk, then He is a hypocrite. But we know better.

 

[k4c]

There are 19 different Hebrew and Greek words in OT and in NT that were translated as 'wine'. If in one instance it can be determined by context it's fermented, it doesn't mean the next instance is fermented automatically. We have to look at them by context.

I don't believe Jesus turned water into fermented wine either do I subscribe to moderationism.

Wine is a harmful substance not because of quantity but because of its nature. Who determines the quantity??? If the Jesus who inspires the writing of 'wine is a mocker'...'it bites like a serpent' and the mind perversions it induces turned water in to intoxicating wine when the people were probably already drunk, then He is a hypocrite. But we know better.

So what if the Bible warns against too much wine. It doesn't mean drinking wine, in itself, is a sin. The Bible speaks many harsh words against sex but that does not mean that sex, in itself, is sinful.

Can you tell me if the wine in these verses is fermented or not?

1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.

Titus 2:3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?

This next verse is very important because it tells us that if we teach people that drinking wine is sinful we are making them a weaker brother.

Romans 14:21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your weaker brother to fall.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

First, I want to thank you for raising a different topic for discussion. The one you raised is really quite interesting. Much appreciated!

Concerning Jesus’ first miracle -- turning the water into wine at the marriage feast in Cana. (John 2:1-11) On that occasion there were six water-pots of about 20 gallons each, and these were all filled “to the brim” with water. Jesus changes that water into "wine", and thus He supplied the people with about 120 gallons of it.

If that wine was fermented, intoxicating, wine, then it seems to me that Jesus destroys even the worldly notion of 'drinking in moderation'. If on that occasion He provided alcohol for the people, then rather than encouraging moderation in such circumstances, He encourages excess.

Do we know how many people attended? Do we know how long the feast lasted? Do we know how strong the wine was (i.e. the alcohol content)?

The "wine" was provided toward the end of the celebrations when the people had almost exhausted their supply, and now suddenly here is a large new supply. Again, if it was all intoxicating wine, then He openly encourages drunken excess and revelry... (And what reason would there be for us, not to supply alcohol to those in need? Jesus sets the pattern for us to follow.)

It's interesting that the passage tells us that hosts generally served the good wine first and then followed it up with the lesser wine. Why do you suppose the host is able to get away with serving lesser wine as time went by?

Whatever Jesus did, He did it to the glory of God. Can any semblance of drunken revelry glorify God? Never.

We certainly agree on this point.

BFA

 

[k4c]

I'm still waiting for an answer...

Originally Posted by OntheDL

There are 19 different Hebrew and Greek words in OT and in NT that were translated as 'wine'. If in one instance it can be determined by context it's fermented, it doesn't mean the next instance is fermented automatically. We have to look at them by context.

I don't believe Jesus turned water into fermented wine either do I subscribe to moderationism.

Wine is a harmful substance not because of quantity but because of its nature. Who determines the quantity??? If the Jesus who inspires the writing of 'wine is a mocker'...'it bites like a serpent' and the mind perversions it induces turned water in to intoxicating wine when the people were probably already drunk, then He is a hypocrite. But we know better.​

​

So what if the Bible warns against too much wine. It doesn't mean drinking wine, in itself, is a sin. The Bible speaks many harsh words against sex but that does not mean that sex, in itself, is sinful.

Can you tell me if the wine in these verses is fermented or not?

1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.

Titus 2:3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good.

1 Corinthians 11:20-22 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in?

This next verse is very important because it tells us that if we teach people that drinking wine is sinful we are making them a weaker brother.

Romans 14:21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your weaker brother to fall.

 

[Tim Myers]

The thing is.....wine is more than just purple water......

 

[k4c]

The thing is.....wine is more than just purple water......

I know I'm a little slow... but what in the world does this mean?

 

[wildfood]

Jesus drank fermented wine so I doubt the wine at the wedding was not fermented.

19The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. Mat Ch 11

 

[Tim Myers]

What I am saying is Christ did not merely turn water into grape juice (which would have been a miracle, in and of itself), it claims He turned plain water into fermented, alcoholic grape juice.....

wildfood got it.........

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I know I'm a little slow... but what in the world does this mean?

Maybe that not all wine is purple.... some is white

 

[Tim Myers]

"Maybe that not all wine is purple.... some is white"

Jesus drank chardonnay??......

 

[Stewartnz]

The issue for me comes back to Jesus' example. "The disciples of Christ must be living examples of the life and spirit of their Master." (EGW) Are we, therefore, to have pity on party-goers who are running out of alcohol, and provide them with more?

 

[ricker]

The issue for me comes back to Jesus' example. "The disciples of Christ must be living examples of the life and spirit of their Master." (EGW) Are we, therefore, to have pity on party-goers who are running out of alcohol, and provide them with more?

If your mom wants you to, I guess. That's what the Bible says Jesus did.

 

[k4c]

The issue for me comes back to Jesus' example. "The disciples of Christ must be living examples of the life and spirit of their Master." (EGW) Are we, therefore, to have pity on party-goers who are running out of alcohol, and provide them with more?

We have to be careful not to use buzzwords or extremism to prove a belief that's not taught in the bible. For example, we show a person drunk, bloody and lying in the gutter em say, "See drinking wine is a sin."

 

[Stewartnz]

We have to be careful not to use buzzwords or extremism to prove a belief that's not taught in the bible. For example, we show a person drunk, bloody and lying in the gutter em say, "See drinking wine is a sin."

K4C, please could you expand on this a little further? Are you seeing my views on this point, as extreme views? Also I am unsure about which words are buzzwords. Are you willing to be a little more specific?

Regards, Stewart.

 

[k4c]

K4C, please could you expand on this a little further? Are you seeing my views on this point, as extreme views? Also I am unsure about which words are buzzwords. Are you willing to be a little more specific?

Regards, Stewart.

The words, party goers, is a buzzword because it sets off a whole train of thought that paints a picture in our minds of rebellion and routyness, which now places wine drinking in a negative light. If you look at the Amazing Facts Study guides this is exactly what they do to promote what they want you to believe. For example, they show an overweight lady with a huge fur coat, lots of jewelry and heavy makeup, the lady looks like a street walker. They use this image to paint a picture in your mind to lead you to believe that wearing jewelry is sinful. They do the same with fermented drink. Some people will use crime statistics to prove drinking wine is a sin. These are tacticts that are meant to paint a negative picture on something that can be either positive or negative depending on what color light you use or what verse you use to see it with.

 

[Ivan25]

Luke 7:33For John the Baptist has come neither eating bread nor drinking wine, yet you say, ‘He has a demon!’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and notorious sinners!’

Title : The Holy Bible, American Standard Version
Edition : First
Copyright : Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1998, Parsons Technology, Inc.

1 Timothy 5:23 ( ASV )

Be no longer a drinker of water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.

Title : The Holy Bible, American Standard Version
Edition : First
Copyright : Electronic Edition STEP Files Copyright © 1998, Parsons Technology, Inc.

Luke 5:36-39 ( ASV )

And he spake also a parable unto them: No man rendeth a piece from a new garment and putteth it upon an old garment; else he will rend the new, and also the piece from the new will not agree with the old.
And no man putteth new wine into old wine-skins; else the new wine will burst the skins, and itself will be spilled, and the skins will perish.
But new wine must be put into fresh wine-skins.
And no man having drunk old wine desireth new; for he saith, The old is good.

the Bible does not speak out against drinking, how ever it does speak out against drunkenness. Big difference.