• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

  • The rule regarding AI content has been updated. The rule now rules as follows:

    Be sure to credit AI when copying and pasting AI sources. Link to the site of the AI search, just like linking to an article.

Jesus earning his right ?

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
73
Salem Ut
✟206,549.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Phoebe and I are having a discussion about Jesus earning his right to be called Savior and Redeemer by his willingness to go to the cross.

She claims; “God doesn't have to earn anything! The Creator has the right to do as He pleases….”


This is a major theological question, Could God save us without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord?
 

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,058
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,964,268.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Phoebe and I are having a discussion about Jesus earning his right to be called Savior and Redeemer by his willingness to go to the cross.

She claims; “God doesn't have to earn anything! The Creator has the right to do as He pleases….”


This is a major theological question, Could God save us without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord?
The biggest problem with having this discussion is that we are diametrically opposed on what's meant by "our Lord".
 
Upvote 0

Hammster

Carpe Chaos
Site Supporter
Apr 5, 2007
144,404
27,058
57
New Jerusalem
Visit site
✟1,964,268.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
17,021
1,951
✟1,050,043.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Phoebe and I are having a discussion about Jesus earning his right to be called Savior and Redeemer by his willingness to go to the cross.

She claims; “God doesn't have to earn anything! The Creator has the right to do as He pleases….”


This is a major theological question, Could God save us without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord?
There were those in the Old Testament saved and there is nothing mentioned about Christ's sacrifice.
God/Christ have the power and Love to forgive sins without the need for Christ going to the cross, but we need Christ to go to the cross and he did for us.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
40,116
29,886
Pacific Northwest
✟842,112.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Is this to hard to answer..... what am I missing?

From the historic and orthodox perspective Jesus doesn't "earn" the right to be called Savior and Redeemer; that's what He is by virtue of His own Person. Who (and what) Jesus is and what Jesus does are inseparable.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Chriliman
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

It's Metropolis! Enjoy the stay!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
25,694
12,118
Space Mountain!
✟1,471,796.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Phoebe and I are having a discussion about Jesus earning his right to be called Savior and Redeemer by his willingness to go to the cross.

She claims; “God doesn't have to earn anything! The Creator has the right to do as He pleases….”


This is a major theological question, Could God save us without the atoning sacrifice of our Lord?

No.
 
Upvote 0

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
73
Salem Ut
✟206,549.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Maybe I should give more information;

She was working off this quote from from Elder Scott
"The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy,.....The Atonement was a selfless act of infinite, eternal consequence, arduously earned alone, by the Son of God. Through it the Savior broke the bonds of death....We can only appreciate in the smallest measure what it cost the Savior in pain, anguish, and suffering or how difficult it was for our Father in Heaven to see His Son experience the incomparable challenge of His Atonement....I testify that with unimaginable suffering and agony at an incalculable price, the Savior earned His right to be our Redeemer, our Intermediary, our Final Judge."

Through a series of posting I made the point that Jesus had his free will to go to the cross or not,

John 10
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

The Son was so perfectly righteous that his attitude was always thy will be done. So there was never a chance that he would back down but the option was still there.

God the Father commanded the Son to suffer and pay for our sins and because he was willing obeyed the Father's commandments he earned the right to execute judgment.
Heb 5
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

If he had refused to go then he would not have been the author of eternal salvation our salvation would have been lost.

There were those in the Old Testament saved and there is nothing mentioned about Christ's sacrifice.
God/Christ have the power and Love to forgive sins without the need for Christ going to the cross, but we need Christ to go to the cross and he did for us.

I have to disagree with you. The Law of Sacrifice was fulfilled and came to an end with the last great and infinite sacrifice of the Son of God.

Heb 11
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
17,021
1,951
✟1,050,043.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I have to disagree with you. The Law of Sacrifice was fulfilled and came to an end with the last great and infinite sacrifice of the Son of God. .

What have I said different from that?

I do not know what you mean by “infinite” here since what Jesus did on the cross was finite and I do not find scripture support for calling it infinite?

Heb 11
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The Greek word “to teleion” used here might better be translated completed, finished, made whole, and not perfect like Christ is perfect.

The whole system works together in that the prophets had the promise and we experience the fulfillment of those promises, both are needed. We have the better situation since the prophets had to depend on faith in those promises.
 
Upvote 0

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
73
Salem Ut
✟206,549.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I do not know what you mean by “infinite” here since what Jesus did on the cross was finite and I do not find scripture support for calling it infinite?

He's an infinite God making a sacrifice which made him infinitely merciful and infinitely just.

We have the better situation since the prophets had to depend on faith in those promises.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Luke 24:26-27 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Apparently Abraham had a vision which is not recorded in the OT where he saw the future Jesus and what would come to pass. Moses and the rest understood there would be a great and last sacrifice made.

He was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" so yes Abraham and others could be saved through their faith in a coming event as we are saved in something which is passed.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
17,021
1,951
✟1,050,043.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
He's an infinite God making a sacrifice which made him infinitely merciful and infinitely just.

Was the sacrifice itself infinite?


John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Luke 24:26-27 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Apparently Abraham had a vision which is not recorded in the OT where he saw the future Jesus and what would come to pass. Moses and the rest understood there would be a great and last sacrifice made.

He was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" so yes Abraham and others could be saved through their faith in a coming event as we are saved in something which is passed.

No it does not say or mean: “they were saved through a coming event”, their faith saved them in what they knew and the promises made. Jesus is talked about being the savior, but those prior to Christ coming in the flesh depended on their faith in deity.

Ro. 3:25 really explains this:

The Crucifixion is described by Christ, Paul, Peter, John (in Revelations) and the Hebrew writer as a literal ransom payment.

From Romans 3: 25 Paul tells us: God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. …

Another way of saying this would be “God offers the ransom payment (Christ Crucified and the blood that flowed from Him) to those that have the faith to receive that ransom.

God is not the undeserving kidnapper nor is satan, but the unbeliever is himself holding back the child of God from the Father, that child that is within every one of us.

Paul goes on to explain:

(NIV) Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

“God presented” this might be better expressed as “God is offering” since it will later be received, received or rejected on the contingency of some kind of “faith”. Instead of received it might better be translated as accepted (with the option of being rejected or not accepted).

“Sacrifice of atonement” is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew writer as the “ransom payment” or just “ransom”. So God is offering a ransom payment to be accepted by those with faith or rejected by those refusing or just not accepted by those lacking faith.

A huge part of that ransom payment that especially applies to those that are already Christians is the life giving cleansing blood of Christ. Christ and God would have personally preferred that blood remained in Christ’s veins, but I needed it given up by Christ to flow over both my outside and my heart to know, experience, “trust” and feel I am cleansed and made alive. So Christ willingly gave up His blood for me and because of me. This is an overwhelming tragedy I insisted on to believe: I was made holy, righteous and stand justified. Without knowing and feeling this blood flowing over my heart, I might question my cleansing?

“Demonstrate his righteousness” God did not become righteous, but just showed the righteousness He has always had. (God’s justice/ holiness/being right) comes with the atoning sacrifice that includes the life giving cleansing blood showing God’s righteousness/justice in a very particular way; by resolving the huge problem that existed under the Old Covenant. That huge problem in the Old Covenant was with the handling of intentional sins that where committed, repented of, and which the individual sought forgiveness from God for doing (and God forgave without justly disciplining the sinner [thus not showing His righteousness through His disciplining]). These sins could be forgiven by God, but there was no way to fairly/justly discipline (punish) the sinner and still have the sinner live in the Promised Land. God did have fair/just punishments (discipline) for these sins, but the Jews could not follow through with them, since all Jews deserved to be treated similarly (there would be no one left in the Promised Land).

“in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished” Instead of “unpunished” I would translate that Greek word to be “undisciplined”.

“because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”, shows the contrast between before and after the cross. This is not saying: “before the cross sins are now being punished by Christ going to the cross”, but is saying they were left unpunished prior to the cross. If they are being handled the “same way” as sins after the cross there would be no contrast? (And there are lots of other problems with this reasoning.) There is no “punishment” (disciplining for intentional sins) before the cross yet there is “punishment” (disciplining of God’s children) with the cross.



Any good parent realizes the need for not just forgiving their rebellious disobedient child, but to also see to the child’s fair/just/loving discipline if at all possible, but under the Old Covenant there was no “fair/just/loving discipline” so God could not show His justice/righteousness except to point out in the Law what really should happen, but that is not “good” disciplining, the child can almost feel they got away with something.
 
Upvote 0

Nihilist Virus

Infectious idea
Oct 24, 2015
4,940
1,251
42
California
✟156,979.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
There were those in the Old Testament saved and there is nothing mentioned about Christ's sacrifice.
God/Christ have the power and Love to forgive sins without the need for Christ going to the cross, but we need Christ to go to the cross and he did for us.

?
 
Upvote 0

withwonderingawe

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2015
3,592
510
73
Salem Ut
✟206,549.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Was the sacrifice itself infinite?

The sacrifice payed for all sin which I suppose to our finite minds seems like and infinite number but there will be a time when there is no more sins so the need for the sacrifice will come to an end......? I'm just pondering it.

No it does not say or mean: “they were saved through a coming event”, their faith saved them in

I guess we look at faith differently. You seem to believe just having the faith saves. I believe faith saves because it motivates the believer into following Christ.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

It is the blood of Christ which saves us from sin not our belief in it. Because we have faith Christ will deem us worthy of the grace found in his blood and he will apply it.

He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Nope ya lost me there, sinning in ignorance is one thing and can be covered by the blood of Christ as when a child sins. But God is the same yesterday and today and tomorrow, he does not require something from one and something different from another, nor does his gospel change.

*In Hebrew 2 & 3 the writer is speaking of ancient Israel

“ So we see that they could not enter in (to his rest) because of unbelief….For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

So the good news of Christ atonement was preached to ancient Israel, that' why Isa 53 is there but they rejected it and ended up with the lesser knowledge and with the laws of animal sacrifice. Having something physical in front of them was easier to accept than a promise of something to come.

“3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.”

I believe he’s saying the atonement was as if it had been accomplished from the foundation of the world and I go back to the Lamb slain from the foundation.

Those who did have the faith in the atonement of Christ like Abraham ho had that vision did enter into his rest, I think that’s another term for paradise and those who didn’t could not but went to that spirit prison spoken of in Peter’s letter.

“Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief..” Heb 3

I believe every person ever upon this earth must accept Jesus as their Messiah.

Phi 2
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
17,021
1,951
✟1,050,043.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I guess we look at faith differently. You seem to believe just having the faith saves. I believe faith saves because it motivates the believer into following Christ.

.
We are talking about those prior to Jesus coming in the flesh, so they are putting their faith in God and God's promises.
Today we become followers of Christ.

I will address the last part later.
 
Upvote 0