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Jesus as the messiah

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MrGentile

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I was raised as a Christian, but I never really read the bible myself. I started reading the bible on my own for the past six months and got confused. I decided to research Christianity and Judaism. I've come across some compelling reasons why Jesus would not be the messiah.

Could you all explain the things said in these websites from the Christian point of view?

Regarding Jesus:
http://judaism.about.com/od/jewishviewofjesus/a/jesus_nobel.htm
^ Spans multiple pages, please read all. :)
http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_messiah3.htm

Regarding the Noahide Laws:
http://covenantofnoah.netfirms.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah
 

MrGentile

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Sorry about that. I suppose only a small part of all the links actually apply. These are their reasons why it would not be him (from the second link):

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]"


Also:
"[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]"


It's not that I don't want to be a Christian, I do. Just hoping for explanations.

Edit: Nevermind, found a site with a partial listing of the reasons why Jesus was the messiah:
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/messianicprophecies.html
Sorry for wasting space on the board. :D It made more sense seeing the prophecies next to their fulfillments rather than hunting them down on my own.
 
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ebia

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Sorry about that. I suppose only a small part of all the links actually apply. These are their reasons why it would not be him (from the second link):

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]
"

Also:
"[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]C. TORAH OBSERVANCE[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]
"

It's not that I don't want to be a Christian, I do. Just hoping for explanations.

Edit: Nevermind, found a site with a partial listing of the reasons why Jesus was the messiah:
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/messianicprophecies.html
Sorry for wasting space on the board. :D It made more sense seeing the prophecies next to their fulfillments rather than hunting them down on my own.
If I can answer anyway, the difference is actually more fundamental than your question implies. 1st century Jewish expectation doesn't allow for the messiah to die. A dead person clearly isn't the messiah, whatever he did or did not do.

What forces a rethink of the whole expectation is Jesus' resurrection. Resurrection is supposed to happen to all (or all God's) people at the end of the age, not to one individual in the middle of time. Jesus resurrection is so unexpected, is so incongruent with that expectation, that one has to go back and re-evaluate all those expections in it's light. When one does that one starts to see why Jesus' (and Paul's) answer to so many questions amounts to "yes, but not in the way you expect(ed)".

Rethinking in that way isn't uncommon in the Jewish tradition - it may be the biggest such rethink, but it's not unique. Rabbinical Judaism was the result of rethinking some pretty key ideas about the presence of God in the light of the destruction of the second Temple. The Judeo/Christian tradition has always involved an evolving understanding of what God is doing to put right the world.

After Easter morning one really only has two choices:
Refuse to accept that the resurrection happened at all.
Rethink everything in light of the resurrection.

If you do the latter, as Paul did, you start to find it all makes more sense, not less. Bits of Isaiah (say) that 1st century jews didn't know what to do with suddenly fit very neatly into the picture, for instance.
 
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ProScribe

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The Jews who compose the Rabbinical history of Torah Judaism traditionally reject and do not accept Jesus as messiah. The basis of their rejection of Jesus is uncertain, I do not know the exact reasons. The New Testament of the Christian Bible says other wise -(John 1.41) Maybe the Jewish rejection of Jesus is a mysterious paradox because He is called -'King of the Jews'- and -INRI- in the traditional understanding of the crucifixion event.
 
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Stinker

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Sorry about that. I suppose only a small part of all the links actually apply. These are their reasons why it would not be him (from the second link):

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]"

Also:
"[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]C. TORAH OBSERVANCE[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]"

It's not that I don't want to be a Christian, I do. Just hoping for explanations.

Edit: Nevermind, found a site with a partial listing of the reasons why Jesus was the messiah:
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/messianicprophecies.html
Sorry for wasting space on the board. :D It made more sense seeing the prophecies next to their fulfillments rather than hunting them down on my own.

The New Testament teaches that the 1st century Jewish leaders refused to accept that God's purpose was spiritual. They refused to see that the old law was only a materialistic teaching pointing to a spiritual teaching (Gal.3:24)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
A.

1 Corinthians 3:16 (King James Version)

16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?





1 Peter 2:5-10 (King James Version)

5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9But ye are a [chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people]; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
B.

Romans 11:23-26 (King James Version)

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou (Gentiles) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel (Christians) shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
C.

Romans 10:14-18 (King James Version)
14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

D.

1 Timothy 6:13-15 (King James Version)
13I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
 
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Jpark

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I think the biggest disqualify is Jesus's genealogies in Matthew and Luke. Not only are they completely different, but each genealogy in its own right does not match the requirements God specified in the OT.

Matthew traces the lineage of Jesus from Abraham through Joseph.

His purpose was to prove that Jesus was the promised Messiah and demonstrate Jesus' royal lineage and connection to Abraham.

Luke traces the family line to Adam, stating that Jesus was the supposed son of Joseph.

His purpose was to identify Jesus with the human race.
 
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MrGentile

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Ok, I know there is a lot to show proving Jesus was the messiah but, hypothetically speaking, if Jesus was not the messiah - would we still get into "heaven/world to come" if we obey (or repent for breaking) the Noahic Covenant (which i think applies to every human being forever)?

Also, I thought "children of Israel" had a more narrow scope than "sons of Noah". 'Children of Israel' meaning Israelites (descendants of Jacob) and 'Sons of Noah' meaning all of humanity (since we are all descendants of his)? I'm still new to all this, please exuse my ignorance of biblical history.
 
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MrGentile

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Ah, I keep getting the Jewish belief system confused with the Christian. The belief that non-jewish people are able to enter the world to come by obeying the seven noahide laws comes from a commentary in the Talmud and not from the Torah/Old Testament itself, I think.

...I think I'll stick to Christian sources from now on. ;) Ok, I'm taking the plunge and embracing Jesus as the messiah. Thank you for clearing things up for me ebia, ProScribe, Stinker, and jpark43!
 
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salida

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I strongly suggest you research the bible for yourself. The Bible is the most true book in the world and it could only be written by God. Read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell(its overwhelming evidence that could stand up in court without a shadow of a doubt).

Biblical Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

**Jews that don't believe in Jesus are looking for a King that looks like a King who has jewels and royal looking robes. Jesus will come like this at his Second Coming - with glory and judgement.




 
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