Jesus And The Man With A Legion

[Optimax]

Jesus And The Man With A Legion
​

What would be your comments, ideas, and reasons on:

The demons in the man knew Jesus was the Son of God.

For the demons to have to leave the man would cause them torment.
Why would being made to leave the man cause them torment.

There was a legion of demons in the man, which was about 6,000.
The “highest” ranking demon did most of the speaking.

The demons for whatever reason did not want to leave the region.
Why did the demons not want to leave the region.

The demons asked not to be sent into the bottomless pit.
It was not “time” for that yet.

The demons asked Jesus for permission to enter the swine.


Jesus allowed the demons to enter the herd of swine.
There were about 2,000 swine in the herd.
The pigs ran over a “cliff” into the sea and drowned.

Why did Jesus allow them to enter the swine?

Even though the demons were allowed to enter the swine the demons did not drown with the pigs.

They were now disembodied which is the same situation that would have occurred if Jesus had denied their request to enter the pigs.

By allowing the demons to enter the pigs he caused 2,000 pigs to drown costing the owners of the pigs much.

In this discussion the idea that God caused this just as he causes earthquakes, etc. that cause destruction is not acceptable. It is not acceptable because that is the common answer given and is not the reason.

Note: For Jim go ahead and throw in the old God causes destruction thru earthquakes etc.

 

[JimB]

*****


In this discussion the idea that God caused this just as he causes earthquakes, etc. that cause destruction is not acceptable. It is not acceptable because that is the common answer given and is not the reason.

If this viewpoint is not allowed in the discussion then the thread is prejudiced right from the start and the discussion is open to only one POV, the OP’s.

So, why not just tell us what the answer is and get it over with? The suspense is killing me.

Really, I would like all viewpoints to be allowed in this disucssion so that we can investigate them and more solidly affirm what is true and what is not.

JMO.

~Chris P. Bacon

Contentment is not found in having what you want, but in wanting what you have​

 

[Optimax]

If this viewpoint is not allowed in the discussion then the thread is prejudiced right from the start and the discussion is open to only one POV, the OP’s.

So, why not just tell us what the answer is and get it over with? The suspense is killing me.

Really, I would like all viewpoints to be allowed in this disucssion so that we can investigate them and more solidly affirm what is true and what is not.

JMO.

~Chris P. Bacon

Contentment is not found in having what you want, but in wanting what you have​

Sorry, you will have to deal with the suspense for awhile yet.

I know what I believe. I am interested in what others believe.

The idea presented is ok if you believe it and want to expound on it, go ahead. I just do not accept it as the reason.

So, what do you think about it Jim?

 

[lismore]

What would be your comments, ideas, and reasons on:

Hello There

I dont have answers to a lot of your questions. But perhaps partial answers to one or two.

The demons couldnt cross to the other side of the lake because they cant cross water. In the days of Noah God flooded the earth with water for several reasons, one of which was the demonic Nephilim. You get this belief in all sorts of Christian rituals like the water Baptism, the font of blessing water at the traditional churches atrium and in all sorts of biblical passages. When a demon leaves a person it goes into the dry places to find other demons. This belief percolates into literature like the Poem 'Tam o Shanter' by Robert Burns, Tam had to cross the bridge to get away from the pursuing devils. In celtic belief the area between the junction of two rivers is sacred ground because of this. Dont know why water has property but it apparently does.

Fire has the same property and God is going to purge the earth with fire soon.

The demons didnt want to get cast out because they go to the Abyss, the place of torture when they are driven out of someone. Thats why demons and familiar spirits are very hard to get rid of, they dont want to go. Sometimes they leave of their own accord and go to the dry places but then come back with others later.

The demons were sent into the swine because swine are unclean. But the demons are not disembodied spirits, they are spiritual beings with a spiritual body. E.G Satan can enter into a person, but also appear as a corporeal entity.

 

[Optimax]

Hello There

I dont have answers to a lot of your questions. But perhaps partial answers to one or two.

The demons couldnt cross to the other side of the lake because they cant cross water. In the days of Noah God flooded the earth with water for several reasons, one of which was the demonic Nephilim. You get this belief in all sorts of Christian rituals like the water Baptism, the font of blessing water at the traditional churches atrium and in all sorts of biblical passages. When a demon leaves a person it goes into the dry places to find other demons. This belief percolates into literature like the Poem 'Tam o Shanter' by Robert Burns, Tam had to cross the bridge to get away from the pursuing devils. In celtic belief the area between the junction of two rivers is sacred ground because of this. Dont know why water has property but it apparently does.

Fire has the same property and God is going to purge the earth with fire soon.

The demons didnt want to get cast out because they go to the Abyss, the place of torture when they are driven out of someone. Thats why demons and familiar spirits are very hard to get rid of, they dont want to go. Sometimes they leave of their own accord and go to the dry places but then come back with others later.

The demons were sent into the swine because swine are unclean. But the demons are not disembodied spirits, they are spiritual beings with a spiritual body. E.G Satan can enter into a person, but also appear as a corporeal entity.

Interesting idea with the fire and water.

Thinking about it;

Demons are spirits. They do not have a physical body.

Fire and water are part of the physical creation and for them to have an effect on a spirit takes some explaining of the mechanics involved.

The Nephilim (giants) were men. Another area where there are different beliefs. To me the only thing that fits is that they are the offspring of Fallen Angels and women. Therefore they would drown in water just as any man or woman would. Where a demon, unclean spirit, fallen angel being a spirit can not drown or be burned by the fire we have on earth. The swine drowned the demons did not.

I agree they did not want to go the abyss.

 

[JimB]

Sorry, you will have to deal with the suspense for awhile yet.

I know what I believe. I am interested in what others believe.

The idea presented is ok if you believe it and want to expound on it, go ahead. I just do not accept it as the reason.

So, what do you think about it Jim?

Who knows?

just kidding

Actually, I think this account tells us something of the nature of demons. I do not believe that the man was demonized by 6,000 demons however. The word “legion” was more likely a figure of speech meaning “many”—Then He asked him, “What is your name?” And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many”—like when we say, “There was an army at church on Sunday.”

This teaches me that demons are intelligent, submissive to Christ, can enter physical objects, cause people anguish, and can be exorcised by a single word.

~Chris P. Bacon

Contentment is not found in having what you want, but in wanting what you have​

 

[lismore]

Demons are spirits. They do not have a physical body.

Hello

They are spirits, but they do have a physical body. A different type of body from us, but a body none-the-less.

Jesus said at the resurrection we will be like the angels in heaven. Our resurrection body will be an imperishable spiritual body. But it will be a body.

The bible even says that Satan, the head demon, an angel of light, a spiritual being but capable of appearing in a physical body, entered Judas Iscariot.

God Bless You

 

[Optimax]

Hello

They are spirits, but they do have a physical body. A different type of body from us, but a body none-the-less.

Jesus said at the resurrection we will be like the angels in heaven. Our resurrection body will be an imperishable spiritual body. But it will be a body.

The bible even says that Satan, the head demon, an angel of light, a spiritual being but capable of appearing in a physical body, entered Judas Iscariot.

God Bless You

I think the difference in our viewpoints is based on our beliefs of the origins of demons, unclean spirits, etc.

One of the issues I could not reconcile with demons possessing a physical body is that they seek to possess a person. How can a being with a physical body enter another physical body. It would be akin to you or I attempting to walk thru a wall.

Angels, fallen or otherwise, demons, unclean spirits, as well as men are spirits and have a spiritual body which while in a "pure" spiritual state(for a demon that would be not possessing a person), may influence the physical realm, function in the spirit realm, but not the physical realm.

Each being having different boundaries of function in the spirit realm.

Example would be the difference between an Angel and a fallen angel. An angel of God may function in heaven as well as earth based on the commands God has given it for a specific assignment.

A fallen angel is confined to the earth and its atmosphere and has no access to heaven.

 

[KleinerApfel]

Interesting idea with the fire and water.

Thinking about it;

Demons are spirits. They do not have a physical body.

Fire and water are part of the physical creation and for them to have an effect on a spirit takes some explaining of the mechanics involved.

How about this for a wild suggestion...

water and fire are physical, but perhaps they also have spiritual properties? Perhaps that is why God uses them in so many ways to speak of spiritual things?

Therefore just as a man/pig/any other creature with a physical body may drown physically, perhaps a spirit-only creature can be drowned in water - not physically but "spiritually drowned" by the waters' spiritual properties of which we know nothing?

Perhaps. Maybe.
OK, it sounds insane, but I've heard worse in here before, haven't you?

 

[Optimax]

How about this for a wild suggestion...

water and fire are physical, but perhaps they also have spiritual properties? Perhaps that is why God uses them in so many ways to speak of spiritual things?

Therefore just as a man/pig/any other creature with a physical body may drown physically, perhaps a spirit-only creature can be drowned in water - not physically but "spiritually drowned" by the waters' spiritual properties of which we know nothing?

Perhaps. Maybe.
OK, it sounds insane, but I've heard worse in here before, haven't you?

If physical fire and water could burn up and drown demons why are there any left by now?

 

[KleinerApfel]

If physical fire and water could burn up and drown demons why are there any left by now?

Physical fire and water can't destroy them - only the spiritual properties of them can harm demons. Perhaps what we see/feel as water/fire is a mere glimpse of the truth of fire and water, which may have greater properties throughout the universe than we can know. Like a symbol of the greater whole. Possibly.

And if that were so, then why would we expect every single evil spirit to have been destroyed? We haven't all drwoned or got burned to ash, because we know to avoid the physical dangers, and so maybe evil spirits do the same?

 

[lismore]

If physical fire and water could burn up and drown demons why are there any left by now?

I dont think they burn or drown, they have an imperishable body. The fire and water speaks more of judgement.

 

[lismore]

I think the difference in our viewpoints is based on our beliefs of the origins of demons, unclean spirits, etc.

One of the issues I could not reconcile with demons possessing a physical body is that they seek to possess a person. How can a being with a physical body enter another physical body. It would be akin to you or I attempting to walk thru a wall.

Angels, fallen or otherwise, demons, unclean spirits, as well as men are spirits and have a spiritual body which while in a "pure" spiritual state(for a demon that would be not possessing a person), may influence the physical realm, function in the spirit realm, but not the physical realm.

Each being having different boundaries of function in the spirit realm.

Example would be the difference between an Angel and a fallen angel. An angel of God may function in heaven as well as earth based on the commands God has given it for a specific assignment.

A fallen angel is confined to the earth and its atmosphere and has no access to heaven.

Hello There

Interesting! But the bible says that Satan, in the book of Job and later has access to the throne room of God. In the last chapter of 1st Kings the Lying Spirit comes from God's presence. Satan also entered Judas Iscariot. I think the fallen angel aka demon entering a person is to get them to do something.

An angel could enter a person because its different, look at Jesus in the resurrection body he was able to walk into a locked room and appear to the disciples. An angel could walk through a wall or enter a person, as the bible says:

Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

John 13:27
As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

There is no doubting that Satan is an angel and that he entered Judas Iscariot! Satan is also known as the Prince of Demons, so we know he's a demon. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul also talks at length about Heavenly bodies, so we know there are heavenly bodies.

 

[Optimax]

Hello There

Interesting! But the bible says that Satan, in the book of Job and later has access to the throne room of God. In the last chapter of 1st Kings the Lying Spirit comes from God's presence. Satan also entered Judas Iscariot. I think the fallen angel aka demon entering a person is to get them to do something.

An angel could enter a person because its different, look at Jesus in the resurrection body he was able to walk into a locked room and appear to the disciples. An angel could walk through a wall or enter a person, as the bible says:

Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

John 13:27
As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

There is no doubting that Satan is an angel and that he entered Judas Iscariot! Satan is also known as the Prince of Demons, so we know he's a demon. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul also talks at length about Heavenly bodies, so we know there are heavenly bodies.

Different viewpoints is what keeps us thinking and discussing.

 

[Faulty]

Jesus And The Man With A Legion​

Why would being made to leave the man cause them torment.

Why did the demons not want to leave the region.

The demons asked not to be sent into the bottomless pit.
It was not “time” for that yet.

The demons asked Jesus for permission to enter the swine.
Why did Jesus allow them to enter the swine?

Seems to be one in the same answer. Being thrown into the abyss would have caused them torment and Jesus had the authority to do so, and they knew it. That's why they said, "art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" Jesus did not send them there because the demons were correct in saying it was not their time.

Finally, my thought is where best to send an unclean spirit than into an animal that was also considered unclean. It's a sort of a physical illustration by God of the true nature of these demons that they were willing to even embody swine.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Why did Jesus allow them to enter the swine?

*Notes that swine are unclean animals accoring to the Old Testament.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Here's my .02

Jesus And The Man With A Legion
​

What would be your comments, ideas, and reasons on:

The demons in the man knew Jesus was the Son of God.

They also had no ability to stop the man from coming and worshiping Jesus.

Verse 6 When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him.
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For the demons to have to leave the man would cause them torment.
Why would being made to leave the man cause them torment.

Where does it say that? That is not anywhere in the verses.

7 And he cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me.”
8 For He said to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!” 9 Then He asked him, “What is your name?”
And he answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we are many.” 10 Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country.
​

There was a legion of demons in the man, which was about 6,000.
The “highest” ranking demon did most of the speaking.

Where does it say that? That is not anywhere in the verses.


The demons for whatever reason did not want to leave the region.
Why did the demons not want to leave the region.

Let's start there because I think that's where your OP begins to fall apart theologically.

 

[Optimax]

Mk 5:7-8

7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
KJV

The demons ask Jesus not to torment them for he said "come out of the man, thou unclean spirit".

The command by Jesus to come out of the man clearly would cause the demons torment.

Legion:

NT:3003

NT:3003 legeoon, legeoonos, hee

and (so T, Tr (but not in Mt 26:53), WH (see at the end), also L in Mk 5:9,15) legioon (compare T 7 th edition, Proleg., p. 1.; (especially the 8 th edition, p. 83; Buttmann, 16 (15)); so, too, in inscriptions in Boeckh; (Diodorus, Plutarch, and others)),

(a Latin word),

a legion (a body of soldiers whose number differed at different times, and in the time of Augustus seems to have consisted of 6,826 men (i. e., 6,100 foot soldiers, and 726 horsemen)): Mt 26:53; Mk 5:9,15; Lk 8:30 (here WH (ex errore?) legioon (compare Chandler, sec. 593)).
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

NT:3003

NT:3003

legion NT:3003, otherwise spelled legeon, "a legion," occurs in Mt 26:53, of angels; in Mk 5:9,15, and Lk 8:30, of demons. Among the Romans a "legion" was primarily a chosen (lego, "to choose") body of soldiers divided into ten cohorts, and numbering from 4,200 to 6,000 men (Gk. speira, see BAND). In the time of our Lord it formed a complete army of infantry and cavalry, of upwards of 5,000 men. The "legions" were not brought into Judea till the outbreak of the Jewish war (A.D. 66 AD), as they were previously employed in the frontier provinces of the Empire. Accordingly in its NT use the word has its other and more general significance "of a large number."
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

 

[Prizm]

What would be your comments, ideas, and reasons on:


There was a legion of demons in the man, which was about 6,000.

I agree with Jimbeaux, I do not think this was a literal 6,000 (or however much a legion was at the time). While it may be possible, I believe it was a figure of speech.

The “highest” ranking demon did most of the speaking.

Very possible. "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?" (Matt 12:26). There must be some sort of hierarchy in Satan's kingdom if there is to be an organized assault on Christians. Principalities (ruled by princes, ie Prince of Persia) and powers.

The demons for whatever reason did not want to leave the region.
Why did the demons not want to leave the region.

Not sure. Perhaps it had something to do with not wanting to go under another 'head' demon. They wanted to stay in their own principality. Or perhaps they enjoyed that area because it lacked people who believed in God. The townspeople there told Jesus to leave, even though He healed the possessed man. The Messiah was at their doorstep and they sent Him away. If Jesus rocked up in a boat to my house, I'd certainly hope I was clothed and in my right mind to receive Him!

The demons asked not to be sent into the bottomless pit.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see that in the scriptures.

Why did Jesus allow them to enter the swine?

I believe Jesus was showing us that demons are real, and not some psychological condition.

By allowing the demons to enter the pigs he caused 2,000 pigs to drown costing the owners of the pigs much.

Yep. Again, I believe Christ was making a point that demons were real and there were enough in the man to cause a whole herd of pigs to go nuts. It's interesting how it seems the whole point of Christ going there was for this one event to happen. The other scriptures regarding demons could be twisted to say it's just psychological and Jesus was only talking their language by going along with calling them "demons". But this event blows that theory out of the water.
The other issue I mentioned before was that the townspeople weren't interested in Christ. Perhaps they were simply reaping what their hardened hearts had sown.

--

I don't believe there's anything physical that can stop a demon. No 'holy' water or special flames. The physical realm cannot hinder the spiritual realm, only a born-again believer speaking the name of Christ. The closest biblical reference we might have is Peter's handkerchiefs that he blessed. But these were used for healing, not specifically barricading demons.

One thought regarding the spirit wandering through dry places: the spirit goes through places without water, and water can represents the Holy Spirit in the Bible (John 4:14, 7:38). Hence, the spirit is seeking unbelievers who are open to demonic influence. For some reason, demons desire to inhabit a fleshly being.

 

[Optimax]

For some reason, demons desire to inhabit a fleshly being.

Demons seek to inhabit people because they are disembodied spirits.

Therefore they do not have any way to express themselves in the physical realm. Takes a body to do that.

Therefore the seek to possess(inhabit) a person as an avenue to feel, and otherwise express themselves in this physical realm.