Jesus and Paul

[JM]

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/

 

[eph3Nine]

There is one thing that your article does NOT take into account. Jesus in His earthly ministry was speaking TO and ABOUT prophetic events relating to Israel. Jesus had a TWOfold ministry...one having to do with the earth, and one having to do with heaven.

Jesus on earth was speaking with regard to the earthly calling and promises to the NATION Israel.

Jesus AFTER his death, burial and resurrection, spoke THRU Paul with regard to something BRAND NEW...a NEW set of instructions for an entirely NEW audience..the ONE NEW MAN, the church, which is His BODY.

Two programs here....NOT the same...not similar...but totally DIFFERENT !

 

[yeshuasavedme]

There is one thing that your article does NOT take into account. Jesus in His earthly ministry was speaking TO and ABOUT prophetic events relating to Israel. Jesus had a TWOfold ministry...one having to do with the earth, and one having to do with heaven.

Jesus on earth was speaking with regard to the earthly calling and promises to the NATION Israel.

Jesus AFTER his death, burial and resurrection, spoke THRU Paul with regard to something BRAND NEW...a NEW set of instructions for an entirely NEW audience..the ONE NEW MAN, the church, which is His BODY.

Two programs here....NOT the same...not similar...but totally DIFFERENT !

You fail to understand the nature of the New Man as that second created human being into which each and every person born into the old man [Adam] must be born into anew, by the Spirit of adoption, born anew in Spirit and in body, in His image, to be heirs with Him, in Him of the kingdom of God which is in heaven and is coming to earth.

The Oracles committed to the Jews teach all about being born anew from above into the "Only Begotten" [Living] Son of God, whose name is "Israel". That's why they were called out of the Gentiles, for God to "make Himself a Name" -"in which to dwell", for He will never dwell in Adam again and yet, He made this earth for Adam and Ben Adam to inhabit forever and His plan will be fullfilled in the New Man name, "Israel His glory" and His "Firstborn" [Adam was firstborn, and is dead in spirit].

And Salvation is of the Jews, for to them were the living oracles committed to teach these things.

The first man is named Adam, and each and every person born into Adam are born dead in spirit and will never be able to enter into the kingdom of God that is coming from heaven [where it is being built up, for the coming] to earth.

The Second Man is Israel, only brother to Adam, who is come as the Living Spirit -YHWH of hosts in the second person, in the New Human Being Creation to be the Firstborn of the earth first given to His human brother Adam which He came to ransom and restore and raise the seed of Adam up to the inheritance which is forever lost in the old man, as the old man is cut off without remedy to be a son of God and come before and stand before, the Glory, in His heavenly temple and minister as priests unto Him.

Adam was created "son of God" Luke 3:38.
Adam died in spirit the day he ate the defiling fruit.
We are without our head -he's dead- in Adam.
We lost the rule of the kingdom given to We, the seed of Adam -Psalm 115:16- and have no hope to regain the inheritance in Adam as we are without power to keep ourselves alive or offer a ransom to redeem a brother.

Jesus Christ, the Son of Man/son of God who was "Hid in God" from the beginning is come in the fullness of times to be our Savior, Redeemer, and to brig us back to the Father thrugh His Ransom of us.
We are now accepted in the Beloved Son -Israel- if we believe on His name and put our trust in Him to raise us up as He promised and in His name we will live forever -if we are indeed translated from Adam into Christ by the Spirit of Adoption.

In Adam all die.
In Christ all are made alive -whosoever will.

 

[Tychicum]

The Gospel which Paul preached is simply and completely the blood of Jesus upon the cross as a propitition paying the price ...for our sin.

Blood equals forgiveness.

Price paid.

The Gospel isn't anything more nor is it anything less.

Where is it that you feel that Jesus and the 12 on the earthly mission to Israel taught that Jesus Blood was to pay the price of Adam's sin ... and our own ... so that we could as gentiles live for ever in Heaven with God and never go through Judgement?

You know ... chapter and verse please.

Thanks.

Looking forward to it.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus and Paul

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/

I got a question. Where are these righteous ones at the End of the Age according to Matt 13:49?

Matthew 13:49 so shall it be in the full end of the Age, the messengers shall be coming out and shall be severing the wicked ones out of the midst of the righteous/just ones,

http://ourworld.cs.com/preteristabcs/id84.htm
THE MEETING IN THE AIR

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Given the unique nature of this Pauline doctrine in a letter which is supposed to correct eschatological misconceptions, it must be asked if it is appropriate to assume that Paul is here innovating a completely new teaching. Proper pedagogy elucidates the unclear by the clear, not by the unprecedented. Why would Paul have concocted a “general assumption of all believers,” a doctrine which has no basis in any other Jewish or Christian teaching, in hopes of alleviating misunderstanding among the Thessalonians regarding the fate of their departed?[/FONT]

 

[JM]

[FONT=&quot]

Where is it that you feel that Jesus and the 12 on the earthly mission to Israel taught that Jesus Blood was to pay the price of Adam's sin ... and our own ... so that we could as gentiles live for ever in Heaven with God and never go through Judgement?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don’t if you’d be able to accept it...the writer of Hebrews tells us the types of the OT pointed to Christ. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Joh 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Now do a search on the "lamb" and it's uses in the OT sacrificial system.

Hope that helps! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

I got a question. Where are these righteous ones at the End of the Age according to Matt 13:49?

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Chapter 13 is all about parables. I understand v. 49 of this chapter in light of the repetition the words “Again, the kingdom…” thru out this section. It’s my understanding that v. 49 is the expansion of v. 39 which is in direct relation to Rev. 14:15 “[/FONT][FONT=&quot]And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” [see also Joel 3:13][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Given the unique nature of this Pauline doctrine in a letter which is supposed to correct eschatological misconceptions, it must be asked if it is appropriate to assume that Paul is here innovating a completely new teaching. Proper pedagogy elucidates the unclear by the clear, not by the unprecedented. Why would Paul have concocted a “general assumption of all believers,” a doctrine which has no basis in any other Jewish or Christian teaching, in hopes of alleviating misunderstanding among the Thessalonians regarding the fate of their departed?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Did you have a chance to check the chart with the Bible?[/FONT]

 

[eph3Nine]

The words of Paul WERE the words of Christ. Christ RISEN had something MORE TO SAY to the newly formed church, which is His BODY. HE gave those inspired words to Paul to give to us.

They were NOT the same words as those spoken by Christ on Earth, as by His own admission, the words He spoke while on the earth were addressed TO and ABOUT the Nation Israel ALONE.

The comparison should be between Christs earthly ministry and His ministry to we the Body of Christ thru OUR apostle Paul. Very distinct...very different and to TWO different audiences.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I decided to start a thread on this over here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3807042-did-paul-preach-the-kingdom-of-god.html

Why do you think Jesus didn't preach 30 more years to the Jews and all of Israel and do you believe the Kingdom of God is the same as Christ in us? Thoughts?

Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Colossians 1:27 to whom God did will to make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this secret/mystery among the Nations--which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory,

Interesting conversation over here with Jews and Muslims about the LAW and "Pork" if interested:

http://www.christianforums.com/t3764008-the-pig.html

 

[JMWHALEN]

The Gospel which Paul preached is simply and completely the blood of Jesus upon the cross as a propitition paying the price ...for our sin.

Blood equals forgiveness.

Price paid.

The Gospel isn't anything more nor is it anything less.

Where is it that you feel that Jesus and the 12 on the earthly mission to Israel taught that Jesus Blood was to pay the price of Adam's sin ... and our own ... so that we could as gentiles live for ever in Heaven with God and never go through Judgement?

You know ... chapter and verse please.

Thanks.

Looking forward to it.

.

___________-

"Where is it that you feel that Jesus and the 12 on the earthly mission to Israel taught that Jesus Blood was to pay the price of Adam's sin ... and our own ... so that we could as gentiles live for ever in Heaven with God and never go through Judgement?

You know ... chapter and verse please."
________________--
"Bingo." I asked this question to this person over and over again on another thread, i.e.,where in Mt.-John, either "pre-cross", or "post-cross", did the Lord Jesus Christ, or "the twelve", or "the other apostles", ever preach "I/He am/is going to die for your sins...be buried...be raised from the dead..."(1 Cor. 15:1-4), "...for our justification"(emphasis mine-Romans 4:25)

All I received(other than a quote from the book of Enoch) was "The Queen to Alice(in Wonderland)" type of disjointed response, quoting every scripture but those contained within Mt.-John, as it applies to 1 Cor. 15:1-4 specifically:

"The word means what I say it means." -The Queen to Alice

"The 12", "the other apostles", knew nothing about 1 Cor. 15:1-4, it was hid from them, Peter attempted to prevent the Lord Jesus Christ's death, and "the 12", "the other apostles", did not even believe the resurrection even after it ocurred. And I documented this from Mt.-John.

I ask all to review the thread discussing this.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[JMWHALEN]

'Why do you think Jesus didn't preach 30 more years to the Jews and all of Israel and do you believe the Kingdom of God is the same as Christ in us? Thoughts?

Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." -LittleLambof Jesus
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

(bold is my emphasis)

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20,21

This great Saviour of ours, the only Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, doesn't "mince words", does He?

"It's already here, 'folks'-you are looking at Him, and it: The King, and the Kingdom. Any other questions?"

Notice the Lord Jesus Christ was addressing the hostile Pharisees, who hated Him-the "them", the "you.". Perhaps the kingdom referenced here, in context, is that sphere where a king excercises his rule/jurisdiction, and reigns-in his absense, no kingdom-no king, no kingdom.. Perhaps "within you" can be interpreted(as it is in other scriptures) "among you"="in your midst", =the person of the King, the Lord Jesus Christ, since not many would contend that "the kingdom of God" was within the hearts of the Pharisees. The Lord Jesus Christ never, in his earthly ministry to Israel, that I am aware of, referred to the kingdom "entering people." He said people would enter the kingdom.

Thus, the Lord Jesus Christ, the King, answered to the Pharisees, that the kingdom was at that moment, in their midst, for He was the kingdom of God. As a spiritual application, the LORD God had an undisputed kingdom in only the heart, and in only the will of the Lord Jesus Christ, and certainly not in the deceitful, desperately wicked(Jer. 17:9) hearts of the Pharisees, the audience to whom the Lord was addressing his message of rebuke.

In Christ and with Christ,
John

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why do you think Jesus didn't preach 30 more years to the Jews and all of Israel and do you believe the Kingdom of God is the same as Christ in us? Thoughts?

Luke 17:21 "nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Quote:
Colossians 1:27 to whom God did will to make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this secret/mystery among the Nations--which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory,

"It's already here, 'folks'-you are looking at Him, and it: The King, and the Kingdom. Any other questions?"

Yep, now we are just waiting for the Lord Jesus to reveal Himself all over again to Israel and the Jews even though He is in us and we in Him.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

[ISA] Revelation 1:1 [a/an] Revealing/Un-veiling[ apo-kaluyiV] Jesus Christ, which gives/edwken <1325> to him, the God, to show to the bondservants of him, which[P] is behooving to be becoming in swiftness;

2 corin 3:12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech -- 13 unlike Moses, [who] put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were dull. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the [veil] is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [kalumma <2571>]

2571. kaluma kal'-oo-mah from 2572; a cover, i.e. veil:--vail. 2572. kalupto kal-oop'-to akin to 2813 and 2928; to cover up (literally or figuratively):--cover, hide. ...............

 

[JMWHALEN]

"Yep, now we are just waiting for the Lord Jesus to reveal Himself all over again to Israel and the Jews even though He is in us and we in Him."
______________________________

Short answer:
The promise was to include a literal, physical kingdom, the kingdom of heaven(of which Solomon's kingdom was a "type") "...as the days of heaven upon the earth...". But it, the kingdom of heaven, was not offered-it was "at hand." The Jews, as a whole, represented by the Jewish leadership, rejected the person of the King. The "...restition of all things...", "...the times of refreshing....", includes both spiritual and physical restoration-all according to prophecy.

And He will reveal Himself again, to unbelieving Israel, and to unbelieving Gentiles, according to scripture's testimony. You may not agree with this, but He will do it for the one overriding theme of the scriptures-FOR HIS GLORY. Salvation, justication, "Christ in you", "He is in us and we in Him", are wonderful doctrines, and I do not downplay them. But you assume, "argue", that the LORD God has just one purpose in His "overall plan", so to speak. The salvation of mankind is not, despite what you may have been taught, a "lone" purpose of the LORD God, even though it should not be "divorced" from the overall plan, nor viewed in isolation.

Please review the verses that speak as to the reason the LORD God is going to "re-establish" the Jewish nation, as a nation, on land, on "dirt", with them as "the head nation", with the Lord Jesus Christ ruling over them physically from Jerusalem.........., and why He has seated you, in contrast", in "heavenly places......

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Please review the verses that speak as to the reason the LORD God is going to "re-establish" the Jewish nation, as a nation, on land, on "dirt", with them as "the head nation",

You mean after this event I tried to also explain this to those calling themselves Jews, but they don't read the OT/OC prophecies too much as they are still awaiting on their Own Messiah and NEW Covenant.

Luke 21:23 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the Land and wrath upon This People.

Ezkeiel 39:12 "For seven months the house of Israel will be burying Them, in order to Cleanse/purify the Land. 13 "Indeed all the people of the Land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am Glorified," says the 'Adonay Y@hovih.

 

[Tychicum]

...the writer of Hebrews tells us the types of the OT pointed to Christ.

The Old Testament is chuck right full of types ... with Christ being the anti-type.

More than you or any have actually pieced together yet. Hundreds and hundreds of them.

But don't confuse "type" as "revelation". It isn't. It is corroboration.

Purposely veiled. Specifically so that one could understand them. Hidden. Secret.

Why you may ask ... ?

Well so that they would murder Jesus as planned in the Counsel of God before the world was created.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 KJV (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

This is similar to the reason that Jesus used parables. So that they would not understand.

Luk 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

The purpose of both "types" and "parables" was to reveal their meaning in due time ... not then and there.

.

 

[eph3Nine]

The Old Testament is chuck right full of types ... with Christ being the anti-type.

More than you or any have actually pieced together yet. Hundreds and hundreds of them.

But don't confuse "type" as "revelation". It isn't. It is corroboration.

Purposely veiled. Specifically so that one could understand them. Hidden. Secret.

Why you may ask ... ?

Well so that they would murder Jesus as planned in the Counsel of God before the world was created.



This is similar to the reason that Jesus used parables. So that they would not understand.



The purpose of both "types" and "parables" was to reveal their meaning in due time ... not then and there.

.

amen tychie...good post.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The purpose of both "types" and "parables" was to reveal their meaning in due time ... not then and there.

Isn't that how you study revelation? One can use the Books of Exodus [Bondage] and Joshua [Victory] and interpret revelation. At least that is what I try to tell the Jews and Muslims when I try to explain to them what Revelation is "signifying".

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without[ exqen] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be you Casting- Out! [#1544 ekbale ] Out-side [#1854 exw] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

Mark 11:17 Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not Written, 'My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it a 'den of thieves.' "

zech 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Y@hovah of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite/merchant in the House of the Y@hovah of hosts.

 

[Tychicum]

Isn't that how you study revelation? One can use the Books of Exodus [Bondage] and Joshua [Victory] and interpret revelation. At least that is what I try to tell the Jews and Muslims when I try to explain to them what Revelation is "signifying".

That is indeed the proper use ... Here is a couple things you may find useful ...

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/

http://www.messiahnj.org/af-throne.htm

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The purpose of both "types" and "parables" was to reveal their meaning in due time ... not then and there.

Isn't that how you study revelation? One can use the Books of Exodus [Bondage] and Joshua [Victory] and interpret revelation. At least that is what I try to tell the Jews and Muslims when I try to explain to them what Revelation is "signifying".

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing! and Measure Ye! the Sanctuary/Naos? of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it 2 And the Court [#833], the one without[ exqen] the Sanctuary/Naos [#3485] be you Casting- Out! [#1544 ekbale ] Out-side [#1854 exw] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because it/she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

http://www.nsbible.org/sits_ts/v0s1.htm

The Camp--The Court--The Tabernacle--The Brazen Altar--The Laver-- The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--The Mercy Seat and Ark--The Gate--The First Veil--The Second Veil--The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

Mark 11:17 Then He taught, saying to them, "Is it not Written, 'My House shall be called a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it a 'den of thieves.' "

zech 14:21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Y@hovah of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite/merchant in the House of the Y@hovah of hosts.

That is indeed the proper use ... Here is a couple things you may find useful ...

http://www.messiahrevealed.org/

http://www.messiahnj.org/af-throne.htm

Ok thanks. You may find this very lenghthy 33 part series on the Royal Priesthood interesting.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP1.htm
THE ROYAL PRIESTHOOD

There are many other examples of such words and phrases, but one we want to consider in this message is the proclamation of the Lord to His people in Ex. 19:5-6: "And ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS." The full text reads, "Now, therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine: and ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and an holy nation."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Anyone want to discuss this?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am curious on how others on this board study revelation. I of course do not go outside the Bible, so I study it a little differently than most [Post # 18]. Thanks.