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Actually, I only made one post in that thread and anyone who reads it will see that I said nothing about Roman Catholic teaching, nor did I hold anyone to a double standard.
So here we have the first example of your trouble with telling the truth.
Actually, I didn't "attack" anything. I simply said that, based on what those who have read the book have told me about it, I'm not interested in reading it.
In any event, nowhere in this thread did I attack Roman Catholics, as you claim I did in this thread.
This is the second example of your trouble telling the truth.
No, what I said is that I had already presented copious amounts of scripture to demonatrate that OSAS is Biblical and, since no one in that thread was able to refute them, I saw no reason to abandon the Biblical teaching of OSAS.
Actually, I didn't insult anybody in this thread. I simply made the comment that TBN promotes false doctrine and is blocked out on our cable box.
Actually, what I said is that Roman Catholics worship Mary and consider her to be Co-Redemptrix. I and many other posters here have already demonstrated this to be true.
Still waiting for you to show us where I've ever attack Roman Catholics or WoFers.
In baseball, this would be strike three, but let's continue, shall we?
Then take it up with the person who started the thread.
The entirety of my comments in that thread were:
Notice that I do not attack Roman Catholics, as you're claiming.
Actually, it isn't. It's a link to a John MacArthur sermon in which he uses Biblical and historical evidence to ask the question, "Should we share the Gospel with Roman Catholics". Had you bothered to listen to it, you would have seen that the conclusion is not an attack on Roman Catholics, but simply and acknowledgement that church membership doesn't save you, whether it be a Roman Catholic church, a Baptist church, or any other church.
Anyone who reads my threads in this post will see that not only did I not attack Roman Catholicsism, but didn't even adress it's teachings.
I simply posted a link to a sermon and my comments were limited to that sermon
Sigh...
And, once again, we see that I didn't misrepresent anyone or insult them. In fact, I don't even know that I spoke to a Roman Catholic at all in that thread.
So, since we see that you're unable to show an example of my ever having attacked Roman Catholics, I'm going to follow the Bible's admonition not to answer a fool according to his folly, and put you on ignore.
I agree. Watching you embarrass yourself this way is becoming quite boring.
Well, if you're doing a numbers check, I quoted 6 passages of scripture, 13 verses in all, in the two posts I have made in the thread and referred to a few more.I don't see much Scripture, if any, coming from ANYONE. It reads like a bunch of arguments back and forth. That is good, if you are not saying "the Bible says THIS". If you are saying "I believe", okay then. But for anyone presenting any point of view in this topic, to make their case Biblical, we need to have Scripture.
That wasn't thrown in any one direction, but generally, because I'm seeing this back-and-forth banter about "YOU don't have Scripture", and then someone says, "No, YOU don't have scripture".
I got one ... "now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face."
Hi Cindy!
LOL! Things have changed drastically since the last time we've talked.
The throne room is in our hearts. We can go there any time.
Jesus looks like a tall slender man. Brown eyes, brown wavy hair. The Holy spirit is a tall etherial man, all glowing and white with HUGE wings. God the Father looks like a powerful but gentle man. I have to use the face of my imagination because He is difficult to see. I see my own father's face or a man's face.
The room is where I go to chat, but they have other thrones where its set up high above the ground. Nations were worshipping them. Everyone had their hands up and singing.
They were in the center, up high.
There are other people/spirits there. Some children/babies and adults. I didn't stay long to talk with them. I saw my own "mansion" and the roads paved in emeralds and rubies.
There are cities and outlying towns and countries. Much like earth but better.
No cars.
As for authority; depending on what you are to Him on earth, you will have that much authority in heaven. Best I can describe is like Joshua when he was dividing the land amongst the tribes in Caanan.
Gotta go start my day...
talk with you more later.
Hi Cindy!
LOL! Things have changed drastically since the last time we've talked.
The throne room is in our hearts. We can go there any time.
Jesus looks like a tall slender man. Brown eyes, brown wavy hair. The Holy spirit is a tall etherial man, all glowing and white with HUGE wings. God the Father looks like a powerful but gentle man. I have to use the face of my imagination because He is difficult to see. I see my own father's face or a man's face.
The room is where I go to chat, but they have other thrones where its set up high above the ground. Nations were worshipping them. Everyone had their hands up and singing.
They were in the center, up high.
There are other people/spirits there. Some children/babies and adults. I didn't stay long to talk with them. I saw my own "mansion" and the roads paved in emeralds and rubies.
There are cities and outlying towns and countries. Much like earth but better.
No cars.
As for authority; depending on what you are to Him on earth, you will have that much authority in heaven. Best I can describe is like Joshua when he was dividing the land amongst the tribes in Caanan.
Gotta go start my day...
talk with you more later.
Just a note, I ussually quote from memmory and don't use verse and chapter.I don't see much Scripture, if any, coming from ANYONE. It reads like a bunch of arguments back and forth. That is good, if you are not saying "the Bible says THIS". If you are saying "I believe", okay then. But for anyone presenting any point of view in this topic, to make their case Biblical, we need to have Scripture.
That wasn't thrown in any one direction, but generally, because I'm seeing this back-and-forth banter about "YOU don't have Scripture", and then someone says, "No, YOU don't have scripture".
I got one ... "now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face."
I never said that.Atlantians,
one more post and then I'm off to bed
I don't agree with the idea that spirit, if it has no physical manifestation is no where.
Well since you are arguing from a contradiction of terms, this is irrelivent.I don't think this can be proven, by any biblical evidence (and there is no empirical evidence that I'm aware of), and I don't think it follows necessarily ontologically either.
We do... and don't.The problem is that we really don't know what spirit is, and how it interacts with the physical.
That is metaphysicalism. Like budhism.I would argue that the physical world arises from, or is an expression of spirit. This is somewhat vague, so I'll try to define it a little more clearly. I would say it is similar to the way in which an Idea arises from a mind, or is the expression of a mind. So the physical arises out of the spiritual.
Yes and no.The spiritual, can exist without and seperate from physical elements. However the physical can not be fully seperated from, or without spiritual foundation.
The spiritual and physical are both disconnected and connected.The errors of gnosticism all arise from seeing a disconnect, a seperation between physical and spiritual reality. The two are connected, and the spiritual is the foundation of the physical.
True.The problem is that we really have no idea what purely spiritual reality is like, because we can experience it, and relat to it, only through its physical expression.
Not true.It is entirely possible that "spiritual" could be concieved of as another, different dimension, which occupies the same same space as the world we percieve.
They were manifested by God.This idea could be seen to be born up by the instance in which Elisha asked God to open the eyes of his servant and suddenly his servant saw a vast host of angels surrounding them.
Yes. They were manifested. They were made perceptible to the senses.This suggests to my mind that the angels, which were spirits, and invisible to the physical perception, were "there" they were present in that location.
The two are not mutually exclusive.Also, the opening of the servants eyes, would appear not to be a physical manifestation on the part of the spirits, but rather a spiritual perception on the part of physical eyes.
Indeed.lots of fun stuff to think about.
He said if he was in the body or out of the body he doesn't know.Of course Heaven is a physical place, Paul went there himself, also. If it was metaphysical (or whatever ), where did he go?
I've heard the testimony Jesse gave, and I don't think he is making it up. He tells us to test what he says against the witness of the Spirit.
*roles eyes*No because when useing the proper context, whenever the word heaven is used you must conclude that heaven is a real place, not a state of existance. You are not useing proper context, if you are in fact useing the word of God, I have no way of knowing if you are. Actually the only thing you say you have used is "concepts" so you useing the word of God is a question of mine.
Dude... "kingdom of heaven" is a contrasting analogy to earthly kingdoms.Anyway, for instance, whenever the phrase "Kingdom of heaven" is used it is talking about a place.
You are trying to make an analogy stand on what it is being compared to, not what is being related.The very phrase used indicates this. Whatever a King rules over is called a domain. This is where we got the word Kingdom from, kings-domain, king-dom. Without a domain, the title of "King" holds no meaning and carries no weight. There can be no president without a country, no Prime Minister without a nation; every ruler must have a realm to rule. There can be no Kingdom of heaven if there is no heaven.
Yes.God is King of both the unseen and the seen realms; the spiritual world and the physical world. He is El Shaddai, God Almighty, the ruler who sets all the standards in both heaven and on earth. He lives in and rules the unseen realm (heaven) and is Creator and owner of the seen realm, where He also created us humans to rule under His authority as vice-regents of the earth. As King of both worlds and or everything, God is the standard setter, the rule maker, and the Judge of all things. That's what it means to be King.
You are comparing earthly kingdoms to God's rule.A King cannot be a King unless he has something to rule over. It is impossible to be King over nothing. Before anything else was, God was, He is the great I AM. Yet, God was not a King until he created a realm over which to rule.
If God is spirit, everything is a spiritual realm because he exists in no place everyplace.Until that time, He was just God, omniscient and omnipotent, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, complete, and self contained, existing in nothing and in the middle of nowhere. Then, in accordance with His nature, he created first a spiritual realm and then followed by a physical realm.
Your point?We know He created the unseen spiritual realm first because we know it existed before He created the seen physical realm. He had an audience when he created the earth.
The morning stars and the sons of God are angels. They lived with God in the spiritual realm called heaven. They witnessed God creating the seen physical world and they shouted for joy when they saw it!
Mmmhmm... your point?Before God created the physical universe he created heaven with a multitude of angels. Now He had something and someone to rule over, this was His domain and it became the Kingdom of heaven.
I am not saying it isn't real.We have eye witnesses of heaven being a real place. More than enough men had visions of the place. Isaiah was one of them.
Sigh.What house, what temple did Isaiah see? The same temple that Moses was give the pattern of so to build the tabernacle in the dessert by. This is in the like of the same sanctuary that is in heaven. I gave you the verse in the other thread.
You have a clue?It's not just Jesus who is up in heaven in a physical body Atlantians. Both Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven with their physical bodies. And answering back with "no clue" is not good enough.
Well, what do you think it was?LOL, Either this is an attempt at humor or you're serious and have taken me out of context.
Now that is humorous.I think you have a narrow point of view and or belief on this.
Not thinking very deeply... hmmm. Lets see:I would say that you have an overly limited view and or not much knowledge on dimensions and that tells me you're not thinking very deeply into this.
Well, if you're doing a numbers check, I quoted 6 passages of scripture, 13 verses in all, in the two posts I have made in the thread and referred to a few more.
Are you telling me I should just quote scripture and leave out all the commentary?
The point the others are trying to make is that if you are going to be continuely accusing others of not understanding scripture you should at least use some to make your point.
Well that is nonsense.Case in point, it's much easier to attribute what the Bible very clearly says on something to somekind of a "concept" that doesn't quite agree with the written word.
That was a historical event.After all, such things like the Red Sea being parted just isn't logical so we must form a concept that might explain this in a logical way.
Argumentum ad populum.2000 years latter you come along to tell everybody that they're wrong and have been wrong on this all the time?
Did they?In fact the Jewish people from thousands of years before Christ believed in a literal heaven where God lives and rules and you are also telling them that they are wrong.
Just a state of existence.. what do you mean by "just"?Ok, that's cleared up, you believe it's just a state of existence, not a state of mind.
What do you mean by state of existence?I have to admitt that I'm a little confused over what exactly you mean by a state of existence.
You are using the wrong language. It was based of of what was in heaven. There is no time in heaven.I'm sorry but the passage says that these things that were shown Moses were in heaven. Read the passage again, it says "of what is in heaven". You are discribing something to me that isn't in heaven, something that isn't actualized yet but both Isaiah and Ezekiel bare witness to it being there in heaven!
Then how can the slain animal be the type and shadow of Christ, if it was the type and shadow of what was already in existence?When Moses was shown the pattern of how he was to build the tabernacle, this pattern came from what was already in heaven.
Then how was the slain animal a type and shadow of Christ's sacrifice if it was not a pattern of what was going to happen or take place?The pattern was not of something that was going to happen or going to take place at some future date.
God exists out of time.You do know that at the time of Moses, Christ wasn't in heaven? The Son, the Word, was in heaven but Christ our intercesser was not. Christ is not a name, it's a title that means the annointed one. The Son was not annointed until He was down on earth.
It was an analogy.That's not an answer to my question.
And this is your oppionion.Again, concepts created by who and applied by who? You're odviously not following the same concepts of the Jewish people, ancient or modern, nor are you following the concepts of the age old Church.
I am going by the concepts clearly revealed in scripture.So whose concepts are you going by and then applying?
Your point?And concepts aren't automatically wise concepts even though they might seem to be the only logical explanation.
Let me try and get something across to you about what I mean by concepts.By reading your words. You have taken the concepts that you know of and have applied them in a way to give you the answers.
Eh?God's ways are not our ways and God's thoughts are not our thoughts, Isaiah 55:8. That is in effect saying God's concepts are not our concepts yet you want your concepts of Him to teach you about God?
Um, it was my impression that everything we are talking about revolves exactly around God's word.No, you first learn God's word and get to know him.
Mmmhhhmmmm....That is where real wisdom comes from.
Proverbs 3:5, Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Prov. 3:7, Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and shun evil.
Prov. 4:7, Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
You are starting to like the word concept now aren't you.And Atlantians gets to know Him how? Tell me. Learning from His word and talking to and praying to Him or from your own concepts of Him or from the concepts of others?
First: When I said as described in the Bible in ways not used in the Bible I was not saying I was speaking in addition to the Bible.That's right and those concepts have been learned and taught for ages through the Holy Spirit unto men. Those concepts have been known for along time and they do differ from your own, that is, on this subject anyway.
Men, under the annointing of the Holy Spirit had much to say about heaven and of it being a real place where God lives and rules.
Where is it then?Again, how do you know that heaven, the spirit world, has no dimensions?
Dude... wrong dimension.This is what I mean by you having a narrow belief on this. You odviously haven't studied much on the theories of alternate dimensions and universes. Einstein himself was working on a theory on this when he died. So, you want to study concepts? If so you should study the theories out there that talk about many alternate demensions and universes. I'll see if I can't give you some reading resources later on this if your interested.
Indeed.Your concept of it does not in any way shape or form mean that it is "odvious".
This is like the longest thread I have written in a long time.
If anything Atlantians, thanks for the interesting discussion.
God the Father has been many things.Is God the father like the size of a normal human or is he huge. I always pictured Him being like 500 feet tall and like brighter than the sun and extremely powerful. Id always picture Him with like a white beard and white hair.Ive never really heard a description of the holy spirit, thanx for that! I thought he looked like a dove before.
Well, to be honest, God has no physical appearance.Is God the father like the size of a normal human or is he huge. I always pictured Him being like 500 feet tall and like brighter than the sun and extremely powerful. Id always picture Him with like a white beard and white hair.Ive never really heard a description of the holy spirit, thanx for that! I thought he looked like a dove before.
So, you desribe the holy spirit, the father, and the son as manifest as three seperate persons, and entities?Jesus looks like a tall slender man. Brown eyes, brown wavy hair. The Holy spirit is a tall etherial man, all glowing and white with HUGE wings. God the Father looks like a powerful but gentle man. I have to use the face of my imagination because He is difficult to see. I see my own father's face or a man's face.
Well, to be honest, God has no physical appearance.
He is spirit.
He has no size, no mass, no physicality.
I was thinking of the verse the other night when I was here but never got around to quoting it.Exodus 3:20-23
20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." 21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."This seems to contradict the notion that God has no physical appearance.
Now that is as wise as statement as I have seen in this thread.The physical world is far more insubstantial then I ever thought it was; I like Simon's comment that it needs the spiritual to exist, like ideas needing a mind. When you reduce the physical world, you realise that, in some strange way, there is nothing much to it. It's just varying arrangements of atoms and molecules. Yet somehow, these things interact with the spiritual universe that is around us at every moment.
I think arguing about the specifics of as amazing a place as Heaven is a bit silly, as is this sudden hatred for the idea that Jesus may have been speaking about such a stunning world metaphorically. We're not all walking around with gorged out eyes, are we? Maybe Heaven does have houses, maybe it doesn't. Who cares? We're dealing with things beyond human understanding here, and even though scripture is truth, it still uses words, and words most probably cannot come close to describing what Heaven is actually like
During the time of spiritual warfare...before I was able to see them as each individual...God came to me as an Eagle. He covered me with His wings.ok, lol but i dont understand how he is an eagle lol
I just couldn't let this one pass.I was thinking of the verse the other night when I was here but never got around to quoting it.
I however agree with Atlantians on God not having a physical body in heaven much less a human body. I believe when God is talking about his hand, back, and face He is useing metaphors. For what these metephors stand for I don't exactly know and it would be foolish of me at this point to speculate.
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