Jeremiah 29:11

[pk4yahweh]

So this is my personal favorite verse.

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

I'm sure many of you have heard the argument that this verse is taken out of context by most of us who claim it because it was written at a particular time (during the Babylonian exile) to a particular group of people (Jews in exile) and was a specific promise from God for them to remain in hope because He was going to bring them back to their land (of which He did at the end of the 70 years of exile).

Now - I know this is not how we should interpret the promises in Scripture... and that if we do this with one promise we must do it with all of them (such as placing the scriptural promise of salvation in cultural context ONLY). Obviously that is not correct.

The question I would love to hear from you guys on is how do you respond to this argument? It is an argument that is gaining ground in the Calvinist circles (of which I deal with on a constant basis in my area!).

Aside from a pad answer... what defense do you bring against this stance on Scripture?

 

[ChristianT]

Subscribing because I'd like to know "WoF Apologetics" on this issue because I was just thinking about the argument in the OP the other day an how I've taken it out of context like that. Just looking for how you answer also!

-For the edification of God's ekklesia and a healthy interpretation of God's word

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

So this is my personal favorite verse.

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

This is my signature...

The question I would love to hear from you guys on is how do you respond to this argument? It is an argument that is gaining ground in the Calvinist circles (of which I deal with on a constant basis in my area!).

Aside from a pad answer... what defense do you bring against this stance on Scripture?

God's Word is inspired by Him. Each and every word is for us. And all scripture has many layers, as an onion I like to say. Read it for what is on the surface (it's history); then peel it back and there is meaning (perhaps spiritual help for the historical people); peel it back again (spiritual helps for us); peel it back again, and again, and again....

Context is important, for sure. But if we simply take the immediate context then the Bible becomes nothing more than a history book. For instance, I've been told by the orthodox folks that Mark 11:24 was spoken to the disciples and thus was for them. Throw it out, then; it is not for us! Perhaps that is why the church has become so powerless up until about a hundred years ago or so. A few pockets of men and women who actually listened to God and did His Word; but powerless pew-sitters for the most part.

I think God is raising up generations that will take His Word seriously, and take it word by word, sentence by sentence. Strict context at the top layer of the onion, revelation revealed as you begin to peel it back.

And verses like Jeremiah 29:11 waiting to be embraced and spoken and believed and received. Yes! The Lord does have plans for me! He has prospered me and He does not harm me. He gives me hope and a glorious future!!! Amen!!!

 

[Shepherd1]

This is my signature...


God's Word is inspired by Him. Each and every word is for us. And all scripture has many layers, as an onion I like to say. Read it for what is on the surface (it's history); then peel it back and there is meaning (perhaps spiritual help for the historical people); peel it back again (spiritual helps for us); peel it back again, and again, and again....

Context is important, for sure. But if we simply take the immediate context then the Bible becomes nothing more than a history book. For instance, I've been told by the orthodox folks that Mark 11:24 was spoken to the disciples and thus was for them. Throw it out, then; it is not for us! Perhaps that is why the church has become so powerless up until about a hundred years ago or so. A few pockets of men and women who actually listened to God and did His Word; but powerless pew-sitters for the most part.

I think God is raising up generations that will take His Word seriously, and take it word by word, sentence by sentence. Strict context at the top layer of the onion, revelation revealed as you begin to peel it back.

And verses like Jeremiah 29:11 waiting to be embraced and spoken and believed and received. Yes! The Lord does have plans for me! He has prospered me and He does not harm me. He gives me hope and a glorious future!!! Amen!!!

Amen to that! Besides, I think He knew who would be reading His Word don't you? I know He is talking to you ... and I know He is talking to me!

 

[Tigger45]

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

This one I think is easy to claim because we are to interpret scripture line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. In this case I would take it in three parts and ask them if they know any scriptures that support these statements that pertain to believers in Christ. First "For I know the plans I have for you,". We know there are other scriptures that say God knows everything and everyone. Second "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, again find NT scriptures that states this about Christians. Third plans to give you hope and a future." again find NT scriptures that state this about Christians. I didn't even give any references to back up my statements because in this case I know anyone worth their salt in knowing bible verses would already know what I said was true. I just sit back and see how reasonable the truthful they are being.

 

[hhodgson]

Great answers and responses... and thanks pk for posting it... ChristianT, we pray you found the responses helpful... I like tigger45's breakdown of the three parts... and with ABM, with being his signature, that's right up his alley... and Shepherd, your amen quote fits right in...

I found this and thought it was appropriate for this thread...

Timothy 3:16-17:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
​

"Christian Apologetics" means to give a reason or a defense of the faith because it helps Christians to grow in their faith. This is something that is lacking among believers. Most don’t know much about their faith, let alone be able to describe doctrines. Apologetics also helps to prepare us Christians to give answers to other believers and non believers, to questions they may have, even here about our WoF beliefs... What a great place to learn, is right here on this forum... I look at our forum compared to living out west in the "cowboy" days when all the cowboy's are packing six-guns and ready to shoot... however, here, we remove our guns, and reason together, teach and encourage each other and others (outsiders and viewers) as well... Here, we all are friends... reminds me of what WordofHisPower (Newbe), made a comment on another WoF thread, and he mentions that our forum as "God's Word and good fellowship and haven't found a more positive forum yet." What a great testimony of why we are here...

We as Christians are commanded in scripture to not only know why we believe what we believe, but to defend the faith with gentleness and respect. The main verse promoting apologetics (the defense of the Christian faith) is 1 Peter 3:15, We are all commanded to be ready and equipped to proclaim the gospel and defend our faith (Matthew 28:18-20; 1 Peter 3:15).

Apologetics does not however undermine the value of Faith in salvation. Many people who oppose Apologetics may say things like "the Word of God does not need to be defended!" But which of the world’s books are the word of God..? As soon as someone answers that, he or she is doing apologetics.

1 Peter 3:15:
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.
​

As the Scripture above says, we always should be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks... Apologetics, then, is the reasonable defense of Christianity anytime, anywhere, to anyone, using whatever material is suitable for the occasion not and is just for an elite group of scholars.

Apologetics of course cannot be free from the guidance of the Holy Spirit. But it does not have to be "Spirit vs. Logic." Why not both..? We must not forget that the Holy Spirit is forever moving us into believing His Word. The Holy Spirit can choose different ways for different persons. With some people God uses trials; in others it is an emotional experience; in others it is through reason. God can use whatever means He wants.

If there was ever a time that apologetics is needed, it is now.

Good stuff guys... This forum (WoF) is awesome and that means you guys are also...


Greater works... for such a time as this...

_____________
Harry

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

This one I think is easy to claim because we are to interpret scripture line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little. In this case I would take it in three parts and ask them if they know any scriptures that support these statements that pertain to believers in Christ. First "For I know the plans I have for you,". We know there are other scriptures that say God knows everything and everyone. Second "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, again find NT scriptures that states this about Christians. Third plans to give you hope and a future." again find NT scriptures that state this about Christians. I didn't even give any references to back up my statements because in this case I know anyone worth their salt in knowing bible verses would already know what I said was true. I just sit back and see how reasonable the truthful they are being.

Absolutely. These are very good and very important points. Scripture supports scripture to help to understand meaning that we can be received from the Word. For instance, if in Acts Peter tells a crowd that they can be saved if they believe on Jesus name, is salvation only for THAT group? Of course not, the whole of scripture supports the salvation message and the larger message was being preached to that smaller group. This must be understood.

Very good post!

 

[Alive_Again]

Aside from a pad answer... what defense do you bring against this stance on Scripture?

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

God's plan = God's will for our lives. (Conformed to image of Christ) Eternal life
Plans to prosper = Provision for our well being in the plan (as our soul prospers)
Not to harm you = Ps 91
Plans for hope = Called unto a lively hope
Plans for a good future = Called to glory and virtue

We get to actually know God, and we're all increasing in this as we press in to Him. This alone fulfills it all in one pass.

The epistles were written to the churches. Of course they are written for our admonition. We are to take the wisdom in them and apply it to our lives. The Holy Spirit personalizes them and makes them real to us.

God's plan for us in the New Covenant is great peace, love, and joy in the Holy Ghost. It is full of righteousness and the mind of Christ. Inherent are the fruits of wisdom (as listed in Proverbs), soundness of heart, mind, and body. Protection from the evil one. Eternal life! The list goes on and and if it stopped here, that would be enough!

The plans to not harm you IMO really mean that the enemy will not get the upper hand on you if you abide in Him. We're called to face persecution and of course that might include physical harm.

But there is a secret place for the people of God where we are to be kept from the effects of the enemy (not suffering for the gospel). Throughout the Word of God, we are given promises of hope. Hope abides. The scripture in Jeremiah agrees with the New Covenant and the abundant life in Christ give us a hope and a future, both on this earth and eternally. If anyone has a knowledge of the Word, it would be hard to maintain that this verse does not agree with our place in Christ.

Anyone who disagrees needs to get to know Christ and the New Covenant. His plan and provision and future are ALL good.

Not to cut anyone down. Many denominationals haven't experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, so they often don't know God very well. The might know that He wants to save, but as far as being an overcomer, they might lack experience. No surer method of finding out if that scripture is for you today would be in our knowledge of God's character, and the Holy Spirit's ability to make it alive for the believer. Usually the first paves the way for the second.

People have to find out for themselves, and should be encouraged not to prejudge against the benefits of God, because it tends to put a blinder on the revelation. Be open to be convinced by God Himself.

 

[ABlessedAnomaly]

God's plan = God's will for our lives. (Conformed to image of Christ) Eternal life
Plans to prosper = Provision for our well being in the plan (as our soul prospers)
Not to harm you = Ps 91
Plans for hope = Called unto a lively hope
Plans for a good future = Called to glory and virtue

We get to actually know God, and we're all increasing in this as we press in to Him. This alone fulfills it all in one pass.

The epistles were written to the churches. Of course they are written for our admonition. We are to take the wisdom in them and apply it to our lives. The Holy Spirit personalizes them and makes them real to us.

God's plan for us in the New Covenant is great peace, love, and joy in the Holy Ghost. It is full of righteousness and the mind of Christ. Inherent are the fruits of wisdom (as listed in Proverbs), soundness of heart, mind, and body. Protection from the evil one. Eternal life! The list goes on and and if it stopped here, that would be enough!

The plans to not harm you IMO really mean that the enemy will not get the upper hand on you if you abide in Him. We're called to face persecution and of course that might include physical harm.

But there is a secret place for the people of God where we are to be kept from the effects of the enemy (not suffering for the gospel). Throughout the Word of God, we are given promises of hope. Hope abides. The scripture in Jeremiah agrees with the New Covenant and the abundant life in Christ give us a hope and a future, both on this earth and eternally. If anyone has a knowledge of the Word, it would be hard to maintain that this verse does not agree with our place in Christ.

Anyone who disagrees needs to get to know Christ and the New Covenant. His plan and provision and future are ALL good.

Not to cut anyone down. Many denominationals haven't experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit, so they often don't know God very well. The might know that He wants to save, but as far as being an overcomer, they might lack experience. No surer method of finding out if that scripture is for you today would be in our knowledge of God's character, and the Holy Spirit's ability to make it alive for the believer. Usually the first paves the way for the second.

People have to find out for themselves, and should be encouraged not to prejudge against the benefits of God, because it tends to put a blinder on the revelation. Be open to be convinced by God Himself.

Another excellent post. This is so very good!!

The only thing I would touch here is "We're called to face persecution..." Do you mean to say "called?" I would simply say that "We will face persecution..." And physical harm comes only if we step out from under God's wing (which we as humans are so prone to do) as you clearly say when you talk about the secret place for the people of God. Remember John, who tradition tells us was boiled in oil and did not suffer harm. They finally had to drop him on an island for the rest of his life because they couldn't kill him.

Good post, AA.

 

[Alive_Again]

The only thing I would touch here is "We're called to face persecution..." Do you mean to say "called?" I would simply say that "We will face persecution..."

I say "called" because we're appointed to it. I remember the word "called" coming up also in reference to suffering.

This doesn't actually say persecution, but rather "suffering", but I think suffering is related to persecution generated by being godly.

But if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1 Peter 2:20-21

For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1 Peter 3:17

I believe this was for the cause of Christ.

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Phil 1:29

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2 Tim 3:12

Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
1 Peter 4:19

 

[Alive_Again]

"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."

God's plan = God's will for our lives. (Conformed to image of Christ) Eternal life
Plans to prosper = Provision for our well being in the plan (as our soul prospers)
Not to harm you = Ps 91
Plans for hope = Called unto a lively hope
Plans for a good future = Called to glory and virtue

I'm listening to the debate, and all they are talking about is their "plan".

God's got a plan! It's a good plan to prosper us!

Man's plan will hurt us, but God's plan will help us!

More than just a vague political slogan: We really do have hope and a future with the Lord's plan.

Is anybody really questioning this?

 

[Shepherd1]

We really do have hope and a future with the Lord's plan.

I haven't read all the posts here but I have to give a great big AMEN to this comment...

AND

"Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit." (Romans 15:13)

Note that this scripture was given to me just moments before logging on here...

Cheers
Shep

 

[Tigger45]

Psalm 33:10 The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing: He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect.

 

[pk4yahweh]

Awesome responses all around. God's Word is indeed LIFE!