Jer 31:35-36 and a few other questions :)

[@@Paul@@]

I'm back!! And i bring a few more hard questions... I seem to be in disagreement with someone regarding the interpretation of these verses..

Jer 31:35-36 KJV
(35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
(36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.​

And i'm looking for a messianic understanding of what God is saying here!! I'm not all that familiar with Hebrew >> I can only read it an explain how i understand it to mean by what i think is being said...

Here it goes:
I believe this verse is saying God created those ordinances AND If they should DEPART from before God >> Israel will cease from being a nation. That's like saying I created a chair >> and if this chair should depart >> I'll eat a spoon (accept for on a much larger scale). As the chair would never depart from me on it's own, I will never have to eat a spoon.

Nothing created by God will depart from "before God".

"If those ordinances depart from before Me"

It has nothing to do with the ordinances "lasting forever"; God can destroy anything, even a sinner like me - just as He can create anything >> even a nation such as Israel.

Paul's literal version...
"If those ordinances withdraw from before Me"
"If those ordinances go back from before Me"
"If those ordinances cease from before Me"
"If those ordinances are removed from before Me"

Now look at the meaning of depart...

H4185
mûsh
moosh
A primitive root (perhaps rather the same as H4184 through the idea of receding by contact); to withdraw (both literally and figuratively, whether intransitively or transitively): - cease, depart, go back, remove, take away.​

There is no sense of time given here at all. It's an comparison. IF this happens, THEN this will happen - and "it" will never happen... so Israel will be a Nation before God forever...

---------------------------------------------
I also have another question on the future third (and final) possession of the promised land.

It's my understanding that this possession would be by promise (as in an unconditional possession, unlike the other two entrances into the land - conditional possession)..

Mainly from this verse...

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.​

...and a few others.

Yea / Nay ??
---------------------------------------------
oh wait... one more question...

Must Abraham be there to fulfill God's promise to Him?

Act 7:3-5 KJV
(3) And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
(4) Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
(5) And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.​

I believe so... and it is possible!!

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.​

Anyway... I value your insight in the scriptures and i'm just looking for a few more interpretations...

 

[Katydid]

WOW!! you're way deeper than I am. OK I am going to be watching the responses, so please someone explain to me in baby talk.

 

[@@Paul@@]

WOW!! you're way deeper than I am. OK I am going to be watching the responses, so please someone explain to me in baby talk.

That's why we're here!! To share & to learn...

 

[Sephania]

Good to see you back Paul, Welcome!

I'm back!! And i bring a few more hard questions... I seem to be in disagreement with someone regarding the interpretation of these verses..

Jer 31:35-36 KJV

(35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
(36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
​

These are the "ordinances" or laws governing creation, more specific the heavenlies ( second heaven). Now if the sun no longer shines, the moon loses her phases and the stars go out, thus the oceans will stop having waves and tides , THEN this would be a sign that Israel is no longer a nation in HaSHems eyes.


And i'm looking for a messianic understanding of what God is saying here!! I'm not all that familiar with Hebrew >> I can only read it an explain how i understand it to mean by what i think is being said...



Here it goes:
I believe this verse is saying God created those ordinances AND If they should DEPART from before God >> Israel will cease from being a nation. That's like saying I created a chair >> and if this chair should depart >> I'll eat a spoon (accept for on a much larger scale). As the chair would never depart from me on it's own, I will never have to eat a spoon.
You got it!
Nothing created by God will depart from "before God".

"If those ordinances depart from before Me"

It has nothing to do with the ordinances "lasting forever"; God can destroy anything, even a sinner like me - just as He can create anything >> even a nation such as Israel. Exactly!

Paul's literal version...
"If those ordinances withdraw from before Me"
"If those ordinances go back from before Me"
"If those ordinances cease from before Me"
"If those ordinances are removed from before Me"



Now look at the meaning of depart...

H4185

mûsh
moosh
A primitive root (perhaps rather the same as H4184 through the idea of receding by contact); to withdraw (both literally and figuratively, whether intransitively or transitively): - cease, depart, go back, remove, take away.
​

There is no sense of time given here at all. It's an comparison. IF this happens, THEN this will happen - and "it" will never happen... so Israel will be a Nation before God forever...
Right! Kinda like the Law of Motion.
---------------------------------------------
I also have another question on the future third (and final) possession of the promised land.

It's my understanding that this possession would be by promise (as in an unconditional possession, unlike the other two entrances into the land - conditional possession)..



Mainly from this verse...

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.​

...and a few others.


Yea / Nay ?? From the way I am reading this the land promised to Abraham's
seed, (Not Abraham), was through a promise that HaSHem made with himself. It is not contained in the law proper, it is in the Torah but not in the laws given at Sinai, so even when all is fulfilled the land is still theirs. Also it means that they couldn't break that like they broke the law because it wasn't between HaShem and Abraham but done for him and his decendants. The promise isn't dependant on obedience to the law. Remember it is HaSHem's land and he can do with it what he will, that also means that even though they are back in the land they have no right to turn any of it over for "Peace" , peace will only come through the reign of MESSIAH.

---------------------------------------------
oh wait... one more question...



Must Abraham be there to fulfill God's promise to Him?

Act 7:3-5 KJV

(3) And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
(4) Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
(5) And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
​

I believe so... and it is possible!!

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.​

Anyway... I value your insight in the scriptures and i'm just looking for a few more interpretations...

See above answer. As far as Abraham having to come back from the grave for them to gain possession? Eze is speaking of the graves of living. Like where he tells Ezekiel to prophecy about the dry bones. THis is the prophecy for the times we are in now, from the dry seemingly dead bones, he brings muscles upon them and then flesh upon them and then breathes into them and they rise up and return. They are reunited in the land that they have been cast from 1900+ years. That is like one returning from the dead.

Hope that helps you a bit.

SHalom
~z~

 

[Katydid]

From the way I am reading this the land promised to Abraham's
seed, (Not Abraham), was through a promise that HaSHem made with himself. It is not contained in the law proper, it is in the Torah but not in the laws given at Sinai, so even when all is fulfilled the land is still theirs. Also it means that they couldn't break that like they broke the law because it wasn't between HaShem and Abraham but done for him and his decendants. The promise isn't dependant on obedience to the law. Remember it is HaSHem's land and he can do with it what he will, that also means that even though they are back in the land they have no right to turn any of it over for "Peace" , peace will only come through the reign of MESSIAH.

This is proven by the way the covenant with Abraham was sealed, right? I mean Abraham didn't have to walk between the animals. Is that the right idea? This means only G-d is responsible for holding up His promises in the covenant. OK tell me if I am way off here.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Thanks Zayit!!

This is proven by the way the covenant with Abraham was sealed, right? I mean Abraham didn't have to walk between the animals. Is that the right idea? This means only G-d is responsible for holding up His promises in the covenant. OK tell me if I am way off here.

oh that was my next question...

To me it appears the covenant was made with Abraham and His seed... But the promise was made with Abraham and "ratified" when G-d walked between the sacrifice.

Gen 15:7-17 KJV
(7) And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
(8) And he said, Lord G-D, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
(9) And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
(10) And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
(11) And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
(12) And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
(13) And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
(14) And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
(15) And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
(16) But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
(17) And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.​

...to me that's a promise... And only God can fulfill it.

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:​

...and this was a covenant between two parties.

But i could be way off (that's why i'm here)...

 

[Katydid]

From what I understand, usually both parties of a covenant would walk between the animals, and that would seal both parties into it, saying that if either failed then they would be punished for it. In this one only G-d passed through, so that meant that Abraham and his seed had no REQUIREMENTS for recieving G-d's covenant. But, G-d was bound by it. That is how I understand this to be, but, like you I am somewhat unsure. Hopefully Zayit will come back and help us out a bit.

 

[visionary]

This means only G-d is responsible for holding up His promises in the covenant.

People have a responsibility in having faith in God. They must believe the promise, that God would provide, that God would redeem, and that God would return, and take them to the promised land. By faith, God has given His people directions to the promised land, if by faith they follow the directions, God will be there to greet them. The directions are spiritual, they are for the cleansing of the soul, for the development in the spiritual realtionship with God. The directions are for eternal living in or mortal life, that we may live physically for all eternity as our "teacher" instructed.

Heirs to the covenant...Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

John 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

People are responsible for learning the law from the schoolmaster, so that when it goes from being the letter of the law to the spirit of law, they can by faith walk in the light. God's promise is that the directions are good and are for our new life with God. He promised those that walk by faith in this light will live forever. He will keep His end of the bargain.

 

[Sephania]

Katy and Paul you are both correct, some even see this as HaShem and Yeshua because it does discribe two different "entities" passing through. HaShem made it so that Abraham couldn't participate but only watch, that is his reason for the deep sleep, but he did witness it.

behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.

Remember what the mountain looked like when HaShem decended upon it at Sinai.

 

[@@Paul@@]

See above answer. As far as Abraham having to come back from the grave for them to gain possession? Eze is speaking of the graves of living. Like where he tells Ezekiel to prophecy about the dry bones. This is the prophecy for the times we are in now, from the dry seemingly dead bones, he brings muscles upon them and then flesh upon them and then breathes into them and they rise up and return. They are reunited in the land that they have been cast from 1900+ years. That is like one returning from the dead.

SHalom
~z~

Hi Zayit, Thanks for your replies...

If you don’t mind I’d like to look at Ezekiel 37.

Eze 37:12-14 KJV Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (13) And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, (14) And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.​

Now, I do see how this is being applied today, just as the New Covenant might have partial fulfillment as individuals (Jews) are saved… But I believe we’re still waiting for complete fulfillment, which replies on the nation to repent (Act 3:19), not the individuals. – That said – Is Ezekiel referring to the Nation or to Individuals of that nation or both?? I suppose there are a lot of other prophecies which point to the restoration of the nation into here Land, it appears Ezekiel 37 is referring to the nation: “The whole house of Israel” (Eze 39:25 “…the whole house of Israel…”)

I believe it’s both, so I would agree that it’s being fulfilled today. However, when I read “O my people, and brought you up out of your graves” – I believe it a literal grave. And as I read “And shall put my spirit in you” I think of the New Covenant where G-D says He will do all the work… So I could be wrong about a literal grave, this could simply be referring to the great gathering at the end time, in which Ezekiel is referring to the slain.

BUT…

Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.​

…Those that awake from the grave are called the “slain” and they were said to “live”. When I read slain I think of death.

I really don’t know where I’m going with this, I’m just rambling – I’ll try to sum it all up (please correct me if you think I’m wrong, I’m simply trying to learn here. ).
As I see it, there will be a great harvest at the end time when All of Israel is placed in their land. So, as the Feast of Pentecost had a partial fulfillment >> Pentecost, Harvest and Trumpets (which I think deal with reaping and the great gathering of the end time) are still awaiting complete fulfillment.
I guess I see Ezekiel 37 as being fulfilled at the complete fulfillment of “Harvest and Trumpets”… The two divisions of Israel will be joined at the complete fulfillment of Pentecost prior to the above (which is why I believe it’s talking about the literal dead - Eze 37:9).
Also, regarding Abraham and the promise made to him…

Act 7:3-5 KJV And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. (4) Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. (5) And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.​

…This would seem to hint at the fact that G-D’s promise was to Abraham. Seeing how he had received no inheritance, yet he was promised one.

Thanks again for all your help…

PS. is it ok to spell out LORD? or would you type it as L-RD??

 

[Sephania]

Hi Zayit, Thanks for your replies... You are welcome




If you don’t mind I’d like to look at Ezekiel 37.

Eze 37:12-14 KJV Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (13) And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, (14) And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.​

Now, I do see how this is being applied today, just as the New Covenant might have partial fulfillment as individuals (Jews) are saved… But I believe we’re still waiting for complete fulfillment, which replies on the nation to repent (Act 3:19), not the individuals. – That said – Is Ezekiel referring to the Nation or to Individuals of that nation or both?? I suppose there are a lot of other prophecies which point to the restoration of the nation into here Land, it appears Ezekiel 37 is referring to the nation: “The whole house of Israel” (Eze 39:25 “…the whole house of Israel…”)


Yes, it is is a process of being fulfilled, we have to step back and understand that things happen differently than our time understanding. Basically this has been happening since the 1800's which most people don't realize, but you are correct the 'full' fullfillment will only come corporately. Ezekiel I believe is referring to both individuals and the nation itself, and that being a two-fold nation ( see the two sticks). But this is indeed about bringing them from the four corners of the earth BACK to her ancient promised land. See Ezekeil 37:9
I believe it’s both, so I would agree that it’s being fulfilled today. However, when I read “O my people, and brought you up out of your graves” – I believe it a literal grave. And as I read “And shall put my spirit in you” I think of the New Covenant where G-D says He will do all the work… So I could be wrong about a literal grave, this could simply be referring to the great gathering at the end time, in which Ezekiel is referring to the slain.
Basically they were dead as a nation and HaSatan sought to slay them physically because they still posed a threat to him, and still do today. But here the L-RD is saying that as a nation they were dead as in they were scattered across the face of the earth and as a nation you need to be in one place and interactive with each other. Now that has been happening, they are being brought back from all over but they couldn't be a nation right away because they couldn't even comunicate with each other. This was realized by Eleazar Yehuda when he came to Israel in 1881,he knew from his vision that to unite the Jews in one land they must have a unity,one language, this prompted him to seek the language of old and make it so it could be taught to all languages and they would be a people again not in just one place but speaking the same language. Now what is left is to have the one soul. They had the one heart in Zionism then the one mind in language all is left is the one soul and that will come with turning back to their G-d of old , together as a nation, as a people , the people that G-d himself chose to call his own, his bride.




BUT…

Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord G-D; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.​

…Those that awake from the grave are called the “slain” and they were said to “live”. When I read slain I think of death.

With the hand of ADONAI upon me, ADONAI carried me out by his Spirit and set me down in the middle of the valley, and it was full of bones. 2 He had me pass by all around them - there were so many bones lying in the valley, and they were so dry! 3 He asked me, "Human being, can these bones live?" I answered, "Adonai ELOHIM! Only you know that!" 4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy over these bones! Say to them, 'Dry bones! Hear what ADONAI has to say! 5 To these bones Adonai ELOHIM says, "I will make breath enter you, and you will live. 6 I will attach ligaments to you, make flesh grow on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you. You will live, and you will know that I am ADONAI."'" 7 So I prophesied as ordered; and while I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound; it was the bones coming together, each bone in its proper place. 8 As I watched, ligaments grew on them, flesh appeared and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9 Next he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath! Prophesy, human being! Say to the breath that Adonai ELOHIM says, 'Come from the four winds, breath; and breathe on these slain, so that they can live.'" 10 So I prophesied as ordered, and the breath came into them, and they were alive! They stood up on their feet, a huge army! 11 Then he said to me, "Human being! These bones are the whole house of Isra'el; and they are saying, 'Our bones have dried up, our hope is gone, and we are completely cut off.' 12 Therefore prophesy; say to them that Adonai ELOHIM says, 'My people! I will open your graves and make you get up out of your graves, and I will bring you into the land of Isra'el. 13 Then you will know that I am ADONAI - when I have opened your graves and made you get up out of your graves, my people! 14 I will put my Spirit in you; and you will be alive. Then I will place you in your own land; and you will know that I, ADONAI, have spoken, and that I have done it,' says ADONAI."

Notice that first there is just a heap of dry bones, not skeletons, but a heap of bones.
First they separate and come together back into individual skeletons.
next
Ligaments grew on them
next
Muscles cover the ligaments
Then
Skin covers the muscles
BUT there is no breath in them, now they are recognizable but still corpses. THat is the state they are in now but not totally as there are those in Israel that not only believe in their G-d and what he is doing but those who believe in their Messiah as well!

Next we see HaShem tells Ezekiel to tell the breath of the wind or is that the Ruach HaKodesh? the same spirit that breathed life into the corpse of Adam and made him live? I think it is.

**********************************************************



I really don’t know where I’m going with this, I’m just rambling – I’ll try to sum it all up (please correct me if you think I’m wrong, I’m simply trying to learn here. ).
As I see it, there will be a great harvest at the end time when All of Israel is placed in their land. So, as the Feast of Pentecost had a partial fulfillment >> Pentecost, Harvest and Trumpets (which I think deal with reaping and the great gathering of the end time) are still awaiting complete fulfillment.
I guess I see Ezekiel 37 as being fulfilled at the complete fulfillment of “Harvest and Trumpets”… The two divisions of Israel will be joined at the complete fulfillment of Pentecost prior to the above (which is why I believe it’s talking about the literal dead - Eze 37:9).




Also, regarding Abraham and the promise made to him…

Act 7:3-5 KJV And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. (4) Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. (5) And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.​

…This would seem to hint at the fact that G-D’s promise was to Abraham. Seeing how he had received no inheritance, yet he was promised one.



Thanks again for all your help…

PS. is it ok to spell out LORD? or would you type it as L-RD??

I can't finnish answering right now but will return to this and finnish going through your post here. Shalom!

 

[@@Paul@@]

Next we see HaShem tells Ezekiel to tell the breath of the wind or is that the Ruach HaKodesh? the same spirit that breathed life into the corpse of Adam and made him live? I think it is.​

I can't finish answering right now but will return to this and finish going through your post here. Shalom!

Thank you so much!! That was a blessing...

I believe it's the same spirit which made Adam a living soul! > Life from the Dust....

Gen 2:7 And the L-RD G-d formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

…G-d formed Adam > then gave him the “breath of life” (is that what you call Ruach HaKodesh?) then Adam became a living soul.

 

[Sephania]

Yes, I'm Sorry, Ruach Ha Kodesh, Ruach = Spirit Ha= THe Kodesh= Holy

I will get back and finnish going through your post.

 

[Sephania]

Paul----------->I really don’t know where I’m going with this, I’m just rambling – I’ll try to sum it all up (please correct me if you think I’m wrong, I’m simply trying to learn here. ).
As I see it, there will be a great harvest at the end time when All of Israel is placed in their land. So, as the Feast of Pentecost had a partial fulfillment >> Pentecost, Harvest and Trumpets (which I think deal with reaping and the great gathering of the end time) are still awaiting complete fulfillment.
I guess I see Ezekiel 37 as being fulfilled at the complete fulfillment of “Harvest and Trumpets”… The two divisions of Israel will be joined at the complete fulfillment of Pentecost prior to the above (which is why I believe it’s talking about the literal dead - Eze 37:9).

Well it could shed light on this:

John5
21 Just as the Father raises the dead and makes them alive, so too the Son makes alive anyone he wants. 22 The Father does not judge anyone but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever fails to honor the Son is not honoring the Father who sent him. 24 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life -- that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life! 25 Yes, indeed! I tell you that there is coming a time -- in fact, it's already here -- when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who listen will come to life. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given the Son life to have in himself. 27 Also he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Don't be surprised at this; becausethe time is coming when all who are in the grave will hear his voice 29 and come out -- those who have done good to a resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to a resurrection of judgment.
Notice that in verse 28-29 it says that those in the grave will come out but is shows past tense "those who have done" as to which resurrection they will have.

And then we have Romans 11:15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!


Also, regarding Abraham and the promise made to him…

Act 7:3-5 KJV And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. (4) Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. (5) And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.​

…This would seem to hint at the fact that G-D’s promise was to Abraham. Seeing how he had received no inheritance, yet he was promised one.


I see it as a promise for his decentants. In Ancient times you weren't what you drove nor the clothes or jewlery you had, but how many children, fruit of your loins you had, that showed your true wealth and meaning in life. I dont' see this right now as that Abraham should have to return from the dead for this to happen.


Thanks again for all your help…

PS. is it ok to spell out LORD? or would you type it as L-RD??

I type it as L-rd out of respect for his Holiness.

 

[In Christ Forever]

As I see it, there will be a great harvest at the end time when All of Israel is placed in their land. So, as the Feast of Pentecost had a partial fulfillment >> Pentecost, Harvest and Trumpets (which I think deal with reaping and the great gathering of the end time) are still awaiting complete fulfillment.
I guess I see Ezekiel 37 as being fulfilled at the complete fulfillment of “Harvest and Trumpets”… The two divisions of Israel will be joined at the complete fulfillment of Pentecost prior to the above (which is why I believe it’s talking about the literal dead - Eze 37:9).

According to revelation that is what is ocurring at the end of the age. Reaping/gathering of His elect, and right after, the destruction of the "grapes of wrath". Does that sound close to what is quoted above?
God bless with peace and love.

reve 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.....

......17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Well it could shed light on this:
John5
21 Just as the Father raises the dead and makes them alive, so too the Son makes alive anyone he wants. 22 The Father does not judge anyone but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever fails to honor the Son is not honoring the Father who sent him. 24 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life -- that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life! 25 Yes, indeed! I tell you that there is coming a time -- in fact, it's already here -- when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of G-d, and those who listen will come to life. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has given the Son life to have in himself. 27 Also he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Don't be surprised at this; becausethe time is coming when all who are in the grave will hear his voice 29 and come out -- those who have done good to a resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to a resurrection of judgment.
Notice that in verse 28-29 it says that those in the grave will come out but is shows past tense "those who have done" as to which resurrection they will have.

And then we have Romans 11:15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead!


Thanks again for all your help…

PS. is it ok to spell out L-RD? or would you type it as L-RD??

I type it as L-rd out of respect for his Holiness.

You know, you just convinced me Ezekiel is also speaking of a literal resurrection… Thanks for the wonderful post!! – Mind if I keep bugging you??

Eze 20:35-42 KJV And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. (36) Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the L-rd G-D. (37) And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: (38) And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the L-RD.​

It appears this is talking about the same thing, the great judgment of the end times (of the good & the bad, the alive and the dead)… Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn………. Where G-d separates the tares from the wheat by purging out the rebels??

My only real question now is who gets resurrected. According to John it’s everyone… But I wonder if it’s referring to those who die during the next Kingdom Ministry (after Elijah returns) or the all the Jews, Ezekiel does talk about the “Whole House of Israel”… ?? Any thoughts??

Heb 11:16-40 KJV But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore G-d is not ashamed to be called their G-d: for he hath prepared for them a city. (17) By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, …………….. (35) Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: (36) And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: (37) They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (38) (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. (39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: (40) G-d having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.​

Here’s another thought… It appears by this chapter that those who lived in faith and did not see the promises fulfilled in their lifetime >> have something “better” waiting for them. As verse (35) calls it: “the better resurrection”. My first response is “better than what??” >> certainly this can’t be speaking of the second resurrection to death AFTER the millennial reign. If so the qualifications to not meat that resurrection appear to be death!…….. “They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented” …… It just doesn’t fit…

It also looks as if the “better resurrection” is directly tied to the better country (the heavenly city) to which Abraham looked for. And all who “ … died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (14) For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. Heb 11:13-14 KJV “
The heavenly city is described as ( I believe ) containing the Bride… To me it seems the “better resurrection” would be into that city (according to Heb. 11) >> thus making those people, the Bride. <<< and if the millennial reign is looked upon as a wedding feast >> it makes sense to me if the Bride is present, all of them.

………Sorry is I make things difficult. I truly appreciate and look forward to your thoughts…

 

[visionary]

Eze 20:35-42 KJV And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. (36) Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the L-rd G-D. (37) And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: (38) And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the L-RD.

Face to Face is understood to be the Day of Atonement. When the high priest stood before God on the Day of Atonement, he was said to be "face to face" with God. Because of this, the Day of Atonement became known by the phrase "face to face." "Face to face" is a terminology used in:

1 Corinthians 13:9-12 For we know in part; and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known .

 

[@@Paul@@]

Face to Face is understood to be the Day of Atonement. When the high priest stood before God on the Day of Atonement, he was said to be "face to face" with God. Because of this, the Day of Atonement became known by the phrase "face to face." "Face to face" is a terminology used in:

1 Corinthians 13:9-12 For we know in part; and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known .

That makes perfect sense....

 

[visionary]

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Most people breeze through this verse and see not the significance that Yeshua placed on "believing on HaShem who sent me". Hearing the Word, believing it is not only speaking of HaShem but it should bring you into a closer relationship with Him that sent Yeshua. The benefit is eternal life. I like the idea of not coming into condemnation, and if we go before our Father now, before judgment begins, and have our sins cleansed from us, there is no condemnation on Judgement Day.