Jehovah's Witnesses - Is anything wrong with it?

Radrook said:

Just explaining how they view the matter. They also consider participation in the world's military conflicts as a direct violation of Jesus's command that his disciples would no be part of this world. Actually, if you look up early first century Christianity they refused to do the same.

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Many of the Saints of the Church were warriors. Saints George, Demetrios, Minas and the two Theodores were all soldiers.

prodromos said:

Many of the Saints of the Church were warriors. Saints George, Demetrios, Minas and the two Theodores were all soldiers.

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That began to happen after the apostasy began to set in. During the first century Christians refused military service. That can be easily researched and proven accurate.

THE EARLY CHRISTIAN CHURCH CONSCIENTIOUSLY OPPOSED TO MILITARY SERVICE

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A. General Historical Perspective


"The rise of Christianity led to a rapid growth of conscientious objection. Accordingly to A. Harnack, C.J. Cadoux, and G.J. Herring, the most eminent students of the problem, few if any Christians served in the Roman Army during the first century and a half A.D.; and even in the third century there were Christian conscientious objectors."5


"The many early Christians accepted the injunctions of the Sermon on the Mount quite literally is certain and their attitude brought them into much the same kind of conflict with the Roman authorities which conscientious objectors of our own time face in dealing with the military authority. G.C. Macgregor (The New Testament Basis of Pacifism) points out that ‘until about the close of the third quarter of the second century the attitude of the church was quite consistently pacifist.’ Harnack’s conclusion is that no Christian would become a soldier after baptism at least up to the time of Marcus Aurelius, say about A.D. 170 (Militia Christi, p.4). After that time signs of compromise became increasingly evident, but the pacifist trend continues strong right up into the fourth century."6


"During its first three centuries of existence, the Christian church was opposed to war and others forms of violence. Christian opposition to war early expanded into a denial of rightness of all coercive action on the part of the civil power. Thus arose that form of conscientious objection which has been designated as political non-participation."7


"For many years many Christian regarded services in the army as inconsistent with their profession. Some held that for them all bloodshed, whether as soldiers or executioners, was unlawful."8

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Sources:
1 Encyclopedia Americana, Vol. 7, p. 543 2 New International Encyclopedia, Vol. 5, p. 777 3 Cadoux Early Church and the World, p. 116 4 Ibid, p. 274 5 Collier’s Encyclopedia, Vol. 5 p. 612 6 Encyclopedia Britanica, Vol. 17, p. 20B 7 Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, Vol. 4, p. 210 8 Latourette History of the Expansion of Christianity in the First Five Centuries, Vol. 1 p. 268 9 Dymond An Inquiry Into the Accordancy of War with the Principle of Christianity, p. 80 10 Dymond An Inquiry Into the Accordancy of War with the Principle of Christianity, p. 80-81 11 Ibid. p. 80-81 12 Ibid. p. 85 13 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 67 14 Cadoux The Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 53, 92 15 Ibid. p. 121-126 16 Ferrero and Barbagallo A Short History of Rome, Vol. 2, p. 382 17 Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, p. 678 18 Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 73 19 Ibid. p. 54, 65, 157 20 Tolstoy The Law of Love and the Law of Violence, p. 61 21 Dymond An Inquiry into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, p. 83 22 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude of War, p. 78 23 Ibid. p. 52-53 24 Dymond, Ditto, p. 85 25 Cadoux, Ditto, p. 60, 74, 273 26 Dymond An Inquiry Into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity 27 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 102 28 Ibid. p. 56, 158 29 Collier’s Encyclopedia, Vol. V, p. 612, Cadoux, Ditto, p. 84 30 Tolstoy The Law of Love and the Law of Violence, p. 63 31 Ibid. p.65 32 Cadoux Christian Pacifism Re-examined, p. 230-231 33 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 104, 131-132, 135 34 Cadoux Christian Pacifism Re-examined, p.230-231 35 Cadoux The Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 142 36 Ibid. p. 63, 80 37 Cadoux Christian Pacifism Re-examined, p. 239 38 Dymond An Inquiry into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, p. 85 39 Cadoux The Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 108-109 40 Ferrero & Barbagallo A Short History of Rome, Vol. 2, p. 382

Smith& Cheetham Dictionary of Christian Antiquities, Vol. 2 p. 1182-1183 Cadoux Early Christian attitude to War, p. 110-1112

41 Ibid. p. 117-119 42 Schaff History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2 p. 61 43 Cadoux Early Church and the World, p. 189-190, 275-276 44 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, footnote p. 97 45 Dymond An Inquiry into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, p. 86 46 Cadoux Christian Pacifism Re-examined, p. 231 47 Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, (War), p. 678 48 Collier’s Encyclopedia, Vol. 5, p. 612 49 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, footnote, p. 92 50 Ibid. p. 57 & 101 51 Appleton An Outline of Religion, p. 363 52 Ibid. p. 153 53 Collier’s Encyclopedia, Vol. 5, p. 612 54 Dymond An Inquiry Into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, p. 82-83 55 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 154 56 Ibid. p. 240 57 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 152-153 58 Dymond An Inquiry into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, p. 82 59 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 153 60 Cadoux Early Church and the World, p. 121 61 Thrapp Los Angeles Times, May 2, 1954, article 62 Lecky History of European Morsls, Vol. 2, p. 37 quoted from: Latourette History of the expansion of Christianity in the First Five Centuries, Vol. 1, p. 269 63 Fisher Beginnings of Christianity, pp. 569-570 64 Dymond An Inquiry in the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, p. 86 65 Schaff History of the Christian Church, Vol.2, p. 343 66 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 151 67 Schaff History of the Christian Church, Vol. 2, p. 43 68 Ibid. Vol. 2, pp. 344-345 69 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 245 70 Dymond An Inquiry into the Accordance of War with the Principles of Christianity, pp. 86-87. 71 Tolstoy The Law of Love and the Law of Violence, p.60 72 Collier’s Encyclopedia, Vol. 5, p. 612 73 Cadoux The Early Church and the World, pp. 588-589 74 Tolstoy The Law of Love and the Law of Violence, p. 65 75 Dymond An Inquiry into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, p. 80 76 Ibid, p. 87 77 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, footnote, p. 250 78 Ibid. p. 250 79 Dymond An Inquiry into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, pp. 87-88 80 Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, Vol., p. 211 81 Cadoux Christian Pacifism Re-examined, p. 185 82 Collier’s Encyclopedia, Vol. 5, p. 612 83 Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, Vol. 4, pp. 211-212 84 Ibid, Vol. 4, p. 212 85 Dawn Magazine, March 1954, p. 6 86 Reporter, September 1952, p. 3 87 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, p. 263-264 88 Dymond An Inquiry into the Accordancy of War with the Principles of Christianity, p. 84 89 Cadoux Early Christian Attitude to War, Foreword, p. ix-x
The Early Christian View of War and Military Service

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Radrook said:

That began to happen after the apostasy began to set in.

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You're a funny guy. They were all martyred by the 3rd century AD, under the persecutions which occured well before Constantine legalised Christianity.

During the first century Christians refused military service. That can be easily researched and proven accurate.

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You've linked to a site which has collected all the references they could find supporting their argument and completely ignored all the references which don't. I prefer sources which are unbiased.

prodromos said:

You're a funny guy. They were all martyred by the 3rd century AD, under the persecutions which occured well before Constantine legalised Christianity.

You've linked to a site which has collected all the references they could find supporting their argument and completely ignored all the references which don't. I prefer sources which are unbiased.

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Teaching that Christians could join in the slaughters of the Roman legions and offer uop incense to ceassar wasn't Christian. It was demonic propaganda:

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,

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They died when?

Your premise is seriously flawed. Being martyred before Constantine came to power doesn't mean that one being martyred was not a participant in the emerging apostasy. In fact, there were heretics feigning to be fathers of the Church during the Times of the Apostles and Paul clearly identified them as part of the lawlessness that would emerge once the apostles were gone.
Anyone who would encourage Christian s to offer incense to the emperor and to participate in the bloody slaughters was obviously an apostate regardless of how he is classified today..

FUNNY?

Here is what's really funny.

1. A pathetic lack of any counterargument due to total inability to provide any documentation.

2. Dismissing documentation as biased because you dislike what it proves.

3. Petulant use of ad hominem.

Now that's not just funny, that's hilarious! IMHO.

Oloche Moses Okwori said:

What are the doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses? Is anything wrong with their beliefs? Please I need your information

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The Mental Health of Jehovah's Witnesses

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D
ABSTRACT

A scientific literature review found that the rate of mental illness among Jehovah's Witnesses is considerably above average. The specific level found in the research varies partly because the extant research was on different populations and time periods. The major factors identified as either helpful or harmful to Witness mental health were discussed. Although persons with emotional problems tended to join the Witnesses, the Watchtower teachings and its subculture clearly adversely affected the mental health of those involved. The official Watchtower attitude on mental illness was also examined as were the common beliefs about the problem among Witnesses.

Cult Help and Information - The Mental Health of Jehovah's Witnesses

There are serious mental health problems in that group.

Mental Illness Amongst Jehovah's Witnesses the studies https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/...tudies.com/Mental_health_JWs_John_Spencer.pdf

It simply could be they attract the those with mental health problems.

The sole reason some Christians were against military service in Roman Army was false worship of false gods was required.

If you look up sermons in early church on Romans 13, they are pro military service,

"
Homily 23 on Romans
Rom. XIII. 1

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.

Of this subject he makes much account in other epistles also, setting subjects under their rulers as household servants are under their masters. And this he does to show that it was not for the subversion of the commonwealth that Christ introduced His laws, but for the better ordering of it, and to teach men not to be taking up unnecessary and unprofitable wars. For the plots that are formed against us for the truth's sake are sufficient and we have no need to be adding temptations superfluous and unprofitable. And observe too how well-timed his entering upon this subject is. For when he had demanded that great spirit of heroism, and made men fit to deal either with friends or foes, and rendered them serviceable alike to the prosperous and those in adversity and need, and in fact to all, and had planted a conversation worthy of angels, and had discharged anger, and taken down recklessness, and had in every way made their mind even, he then introduces his exhortation upon these matters also. For if it be right to requite those that injure us with the opposite, much more is it our duty to obey those that are benefactors to us. But this he states toward the end of his exhortation, and hitherto does not enter on these reasonings which I mention, but those only that enjoin one to do this as a matter of debt. And to show that these regulations are for all, even for priests, and monks, and not for men of secular occupations only, he has made this plan at the outset, by saying as follows: let every soul be subject unto the higher powers, if you be an Apostle even, or an Evangelist, or a Prophet, or anything whatsoever, inasmuch as this subjection is not subversive of religion. And he does not say merely obey, but be subject. And the first claim such an enactment has upon us, and the reasoning that suits the faithful, is, that all this is of God's appointment.

For there is no power, he says, but of God. What say you? It may be said; is every ruler then elected by God? This I do not say, he answers. Nor am I now speaking about individual rulers, but about the thing in itself. For that there should be rulers, and some rule and others be ruled, and that all things should not just be carried on in one confusion, the people swaying like waves in this direction and that; this, I say, is the work of God's wisdom. Hence he does not say, for there is no ruler but of God; but it is the thing he speaks of, and says, there is no power but of God. And the powers that be, are ordained of God. Thus when a certain wise man says, It is by the Lord that a man is matched with a woman Proverbs 19:14,Septuagint, he means this, God made marriage, and not that it is He that joins together every man that comes to be with a woman. For we see many that come to be with one another for evil, even by the law of marriage, and this we should not ascribe to God. But as He said Himself, He which made them at the beginning, made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. Matthew 19:4-5; Genesis 2:24 And this is what that wise man meant to explain. For since equality of honor does many times lead to fightings, He has made many governments and forms of subjection; as that, for instance, of man and wife, that of son and father, that of old men and young, that of bond and free, that of ruler and ruled, that of master and disciple. And why are you surprised in the case of mankind, when even in the body He has done the same thing?"

for other such sermons or writings that are pro military service within early church

NEW ADVENT: Search

Daniel Marsh said:

The Mental Health of Jehovah's Witnesses

Jerry Bergman, Ph.D
ABSTRACT

A scientific literature review found that the rate of mental illness among Jehovah's Witnesses is considerably above average. The specific level found in the research varies partly because the extant research was on different populations and time periods. The major factors identified as either helpful or harmful to Witness mental health were discussed. Although persons with emotional problems tended to join the Witnesses, the Watchtower teachings and its subculture clearly adversely affected the mental health of those involved. The official Watchtower attitude on mental illness was also examined as were the common beliefs about the problem among Witnesses.

Cult Help and Information - The Mental Health of Jehovah's Witnesses

There are serious mental health problems in that group.

Mental Illness Amongst Jehovah's Witnesses the studies https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/...tudies.com/Mental_health_JWs_John_Spencer.pdf

It simply could be they attract the those with mental health problems.

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Historical evidence and personal experience doesn't indicate that members of other denominations are any better off neither spiritually nor psychologically.

Daniel Marsh said:

for other such sermons or writings that are pro military service within early church

NEW ADVENT: Search

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Of course there were dissenters. Even during Paul's day there were vociferous people opposed to what the Apostles taught. But that doesn't prove that theirs was the prevailing attitude.

Actually, that’s not what history reveals:

The early church was pacifist. Prior to A.D. 170-80 there are no records of soldiers in the Roman army. Following that epoch there are both Christians in the army and also writings which opposed the practice from church fathers such as Tertullian. Some Christian writers sanctioned police functions and military service, provided these did not entail bloodshed and killing. Under Emperor Constantine, who closely identified the interests of the empire with the interests of Christianity, Christian soldiers were common. During the rule of Theodosius II only Christians could serve as soldiers
Pacifism

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BTW

For the benefit of those on the verge of becoming rabidly irate:

I am neither a JW nor a 100% pacifist.

Let's go to the source and see what Jesus told soldiers in the Roman army to do.

Luke 3:12 And some tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” 13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than what you have been ordered to.” 14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

bbbbbbb said:

Let's go to the source and see what Jesus told soldiers in the Roman army to do.

Luke 3:12 And some tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” 13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than what you have been ordered to.” 14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

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I think that was John the Baptist, not Jesus. Still someone filled with the Holy Spirit.

prodromos said:

I think that was John the Baptist, not Jesus. Still someone filled with the Holy Spirit.

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I stand corrected. I am embarrassed by such an obvious mistake. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

bbbbbbb said:

I stand corrected. I am embarrassed by such an obvious mistake.

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Been there. Bought the postcard

AlexDTX said:

The kingdom hall do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ. They believe he is the angel Michael. They are also a works oriented organization. While believing in the trinity is not necessary for salvation, it does help in understanding how God became a man. Furthermore, to buttress their beliefs the publishers have made significant translation changes in their version of the Bible. Finally, while not a major error, but ironic nonetheless, there is no name Jehovah in the Hebrew text. The tetragrammaton, YHWH, had vowels added by the Masoretic Jews in the 900's AD to deliberately mispronounce the name since they believe that His name should not be spoken. Thus they say Adonai, Ha Shem, etc. to avoid speaking the name. So they took the vowel sounds of Adonai and inserted them between the tetragrammaton to gain the hybrid name Y(a)H(o)W(a)H.

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I actually have a friend who's a Jehovah's Witness and he's never said anything about Jesus being the archangel Michael.

bbbbbbb said:

Let's go to the source and see what Jesus told soldiers in the Roman army to do.

Luke 3:12 And some tax collectors also came to be baptized, and they said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” 13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than what you have been ordered to.” 14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

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This is the Jesus the Bible describes and not the one you are trying to portray:

Isaiah 2:4 ►
New International Version
He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore

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Which of course is in harmony with the rest of the Bible:

Proverbs 3:31 ►
New International Version
Do not envy the violent or choose any of their ways.

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Being a legionnaire went contrary to these clear statements. It would place the Christian at the beck and call of heathens to do their bidding in their wars for expansion such as those carried out against the Gaul's by Caesar which have been described as veritable genocides in which millions of Gaels were slaughtered.

It would force the Christian to crucify people when commanded to do so or use decimation when disciplining the army and a host of other ungodly demonic things. In fact, it would have demanded of a Christian that he attack Jerusalem and burn the temple to the ground had the Christian been part of any of the legions participating in the final siege.

CrystalDragon said:

I actually have a friend who's a Jehovah's Witness and he's never said anything about Jesus being the archangel Michael.

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Ask him and he will tell you it is merely one of his other titles such as King of Kings, Son of God, Only Begotten Son, Lord of Lords, Word of God, Lamb of God, Christ, Savior. Seed of God's Woman etcetera.

As for he being God himself, no, they don't believe that Jesus is God himself nor are they Trinitarians. Neither do they believe that the holy spirit is a person. They consider it God's active force which he uses to accomplish his will.

CrystalDragon said:

I actually have a friend who's a Jehovah's Witness and he's never said anything about Jesus being the archangel Michael.

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That is because it is part of their Watchtower magazines declarations. The Watchtower goes all the way back to the 1890's when Charles Taze Russel founded the organization.

AlexDTX said:

That is because it is part of their Watchtower magazines declarations. The Watchtower goes all the way back to the 1890's when Charles Taze Russel founded the organization.

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The Watchtower Magazine is indeed the primary magazine which regularly dispenses JWs with theological guidance and which they study every Sunday at their Kingdom Halls. However, it isn't the only publication used for that purpose.

There are also books regularly studied on weekly basis which introduce new insights into the scriptures. However, such publications are considered merely aids to Bible understanding and not replacements for the Bible itself and their contents are expected to provide a full biblical basis via citing of scriptures and correlation of scriptures. So the idea that they blindly accept whatever the WTBTS publishes without seeking biblical confirmation is false.

BTW

The word angel in Hebrew means messenger.

Malachi 3:1 says, “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.”

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Curiously, Jesus himself tells us that what he spoke is a message from his heavenly Father.

John 7:
14 ¶ Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15 And the Jews marveled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

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So that you get the message clearly that he was indeed the messenger of the New Covenant he mentions it during the Last Supper:

Luke 22:20 ►
New International Version
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

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Messenger or Angel: The Hebrew Word <i>Malak</i>

So taking umbrage with Jesus being referred as a messenger of a covenant indicates an unfamiliarity with the Bible and even with the basis for Christianity itself.

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BTW

JWs are NOT saying that Jesus is not the Son of God, is not our Savior who gave his life for us. That is definitely not what they are saying. So accusing them of saying such a things merely reveals either of two things:

1.The person is making declarations based on rumors
2. The person is purposefully misrepresenting.

Radrook said:

So the idea that they blindly accept whatever the WTBTS publishes without seeking biblical confirmation is false.

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I made no such claim. Who did?

Radrook said:

So taking umbrage with Jesus being referred as a messenger of a covenant indicates an unfamiliarity with the Bible and even with the basis for Christianity itself.

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He is the last of the Old Testament prophets, hence a messenger as well as the Savior.

Radrook said:

JWs are NOT saying that Jesus is not the Son of God, is not our Savior who gave his life for us. That is definitely not what they are saying. So accusing them of saying such a things merely reveals either of two things:

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How they define these terms are what makes them wrong. They see Jesus as their savior and the son of God, but they do not believe that Jesus is Yahweh incarnate.

AlexDTX said:

I made no such claim. Who did?

He is the last of the Old Testament prophets, hence a messenger as well as the Savior.

How they define these terms are what makes them wrong. They see Jesus as their savior and the son of God, but they do not believe that Jesus is Yahweh incarnate.

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True, they do not see Jesus as God incarnate. They see him as the only Begotten Son of God.