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vajradhara

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Namaste Chesterton,

thank you for the post.

That’s kind of difficult because no one else really knows what you’ve looked at and what you might have overlooked. But as Lukaris said, the basics are the most important.

indeed, such is the case. alas there seems to be no easy remedy to the situation.

A Sunday School 101 lesson might be that there is one living God, creator of man and everything there is. Am I correct to suppose that as a Buddhist you are opposed to this idea? If so, that idea might be one to begin to discuss.

which idea? you listed three different ones there but i would say that i would concur with your conclusion, i find those axioms to be foreign and i do not accept them.

metta,

~v
 
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Maranatha27

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Namaste maranatha,
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste maranatha,

thank you for the post.

i'll consider your point more thoroughly.

i would suggest that your religious beliefs have clouded your understanding of occupied Judea and that most modern Churches do not hold the view of the Jewish adherents that you do.

nevertheless, i think that you've touched on the pivot of the difficulty since without acceptance of the Christan axioms the prophecies built thereupon cannot have the conclusiveness for me that they have for you.

metta,

~v
 
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Chesterton

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which idea? you listed three different ones there but i would say that i would concur with your conclusion, i find those axioms to be foreign and i do not accept them.

Okay, you're right - three ideas. Actually four - 1) One God, 2) living, 3) creator of everything, 4) including man (that could be a separate idea because some people see rational man as distinct from every "thing" else).

I don't know exactly which of the above theistic ideas you reject, or may accept, or may reserve as a possibility. May I ask what you reject or accept, and why?
 
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synger

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I doubt I can help you with 400-500 level classes if you don't understand or accept the basics. I spent years in the Reformed faith, and I got very involved in theological discussions in intricate detail... only to lose track of the basics. If you don't accept the basics, then the rest won't matter much either.

I've studied a number of other faiths. My area of the country has many temples, synagogues, mosques, and gurdwaras to visit, and the people have been very open to discussion with us. My family has learned a great deal from these discussions.

But ultimately, it all seems to come down to "how then must we live?" From the idea that one must do certain things to attain salvation or enlightenment, to the idea that everything we do has automatic and unavoidable effects, to the idea that we must strive to be good and to obey God... they are all focused on what we must do.

Christianity is completely backwards from this, from any other religion I've studied. It starts with the premise that we CAN'T be "good enough" to earn salvation/enlightenment/heaven. We are human, and thus inherently we are selfish. We can try and try, but that selfishness is part of us and will infiltrate everything we do. Even when we do "good deeds", it is impossible to know what is "enough".

It is not our works that save us or enlighten us. Christ's sacrifice and triumph over death and sin has done that already. We no longer have to worry about whether we are good enough, or whether we've followed all the rules perfectly, or whether we'll be tormented in the next life because of hurts we've done others in this one.

We are called to worship God and to serve others. But it's not an "in order to" sort of thing. It's a "because" thing. I don't knit shawls for the elderly, give food to the homeless, and teach English to recent immigrants because I'm trying to earn my way into heaven. Christ has already opened that door to me because of His work on the cross. I do those things as a reaction to the joy of his salvation... because he asks it of me as a friend in love and obedience to him, not as a demand "in order to" get to heaven.

He'll certainly continue to work on me to make my life more and more a holy work of service and love. I'm still a poor sinner, and need God's help each day to love others and serve Him. But the basic salvation from sin and death is not my work. It's His. And it's already been done.

And I think that's the basics of my faith. Without that framework, everything else, while interesting to discuss, is pretty meaningless.
 
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Maranatha27

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GoodNewsJim

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I just want to add that vajradhara does seem like a legit seeker.

As far as advanced teachings, one advanced thing that I have noticed is that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sinners in order to bring creation back to God. Cosmically speaking, it is wrong to disobey God. If there was no understanding of the consequences of sin, we could think to ourselves that sin is ok, and go against God. But we know bad things happen to other people when we sin, so we shouldn't do it. The only way for people to live in perfect harmony in Heaven or the New Earth is for the people existing there to not sin so others do not suffer. People that stop sinning and submit to Jesus are allowed to be among God's Heavenly beings. People who forsake Jesus so they can continue to sin can never live in eternal harmony with others, and that is why they aren't allowed in Heaven.
 
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winsome

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Hi vajradhara,

I'm not sure if this helps but as I see it all religions seek to answer these basic questions:

[FONT=&quot]1. Are there non-material beings outside of our material cosmos; more specifically what we could call God or gods? And if we believe in a God (or gods) what is the nature of that God (or gods)?.

2. Why am I alive? Am I a random event? Is there a purpose in my existence?

3. What happens to me when I die? Is there existence after death and what is the nature of that existence?

I believe Christianity give the true answers to these questions as far as we can know them.

winsome
[/FONT]
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste Chesterton,

thank you for the post.

Okay, you're right - three ideas. Actually four - 1) One God, 2) living, 3) creator of everything, 4) including man (that could be a separate idea because some people see rational man as distinct from every "thing" else).

that would be an interesting view to exclude humanity from the idea of "everything in the universe" , one which seems hopelessly uninformed to my way of thinking however it would make it four ideas.

I don't know exactly which of the above theistic ideas you reject, or may accept, or may reserve as a possibility. May I ask what you reject or accept, and why?

that's a good question. i shall not, unfortunately, be able to expound my views very thoroughly due to the limitations placed upon my free speech on the forum. nevertheless i should be able to convey the ideas behind some of my objections.

1. One God.

even the Bible acknowledges other deities but, more to the point perhaps, is that my religion teaches that deities exist. given that i am an adherent of my religion and all i accept it's teachings.

2. living

all deities are alive so this isn't an unusual view for me and one found throughout the Dharma traditions.

3. creator of everything.

there is no creator deity ipsofacto actions, thoughts or words attributed to such are misattributed. my religion teaches that there is a deity that thinks it is the creator and has convinced most other beings that this is so however the deity is incorrect. more to the point, however, is that even this deity is subject to karma and will eventually cease to arise as its karmic energy is expended. more to it's sorrow, however, is that since it believes it is the creator deity it does not have a chance to practice the Dharma and attain the Other Shore.

by and large my objection comes into play with the idea of there being a creator deity not in respect to the idea of deity in general.

metta,

~v
 
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vajradhara

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I doubt I can help you with 400-500 level classes if you don't understand or accept the basics. ......Without that framework, everything else, while interesting to discuss, is pretty meaningless.

Namaste synger,

thanks for the post.

ok.

metta,

~v
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste JamesSager,

thank you for the post.

JamesSager3 said:
As far as advanced teachings, one advanced thing that I have noticed is that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sinners in order to bring creation back to God.

interesting! i don't think that i've encountered this view previously. if i am understanding what you are saying... humanity's sin took the ability of creation from God and thus Jesus came to earth and died to get that ability back. is that correct?


are you suggesting that beings in heaven would still have the capacity to commit sinful actions?

metta,

~v
 
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Chesterton

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that would be an interesting view to exclude humanity from the idea of "everything in the universe" , one which seems hopelessly uninformed to my way of thinking however it would make it four ideas.

There are reasons to do so. As far as we know, nothing but man has reason, nothing but man makes art, poetry and myth. Nothing but man observes, measures, describes and judges the universe. Man is “special” in many senses.

1. One God.

even the Bible acknowledges other deities but, more to the point perhaps, is that my religion teaches that deities exist. given that i am an adherent of my religion and all i accept it's teachings.

The Bible is very adamant that God is one.

2. living

all deities are alive so this isn't an unusual view for me and one found throughout the Dharma traditions.

Some believe a deity created the universe and is now absent and unconcerned, or dead. Christians believe God is living, present and concerned with humans.



Are you saying Jehovah God is deluded or lying? Then who created Him? How did He come to exist, how did karma and the Other Shore come to exist?

If you have in mind a deity which did not create, then you have in mind simply one of many created things. The only thing uncreated is Jehovah God. That’s the Christian idea of God, and you can’t get over or behind it.
 
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GoodNewsJim

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God always has his powers from the beginning of time and to eternity. Jesus didn't die to gain power. Jesus died so humans could get out of their fate of eternal Hell. Without Jesus, there could be no escaping Hell at all.

What I was saying is that the only way for us to turn to God and turn away from sin is through Jesus. Jesus didn't conquer the world through force and make men submit to his will. Jesus willingly died in our place on the cross for our sins... We can make the decision on our own whether we want to come close to this God and stop our sinning.

It is through experience with the world and understanding of scripture that we can truly learn how awful sin is. If God would have just made us in Heaven and didn't make the Earth, we may never know the consequences of sin. There are so many things God could have done, but he chose this way in order to completely separate good from evil.

I think God choses not to use his powers in lots of flashy ways in order to bring more glory to his son. Jesus' acts on Earth are to be the reason people come to God turn from their sins. I used to pray to God that he give me the power to heal anyone, but then I realized that would make me the biggest celebrity on the planet, and that I'd detract from Jesus even if I told everyone that the powers I have came from Jesus. There are many things that are bad other than just disease. God promises to fix everything! Reality has to take place in order to convict evil and bring redemption to those that need it. The Earth won't stand a minute longer than it needs to before Jesus returns.



are you suggesting that beings in heaven would still have the capacity to commit sinful actions?

metta,

~v


Heaven will be different than Earth. If you are about to cause suffering to another being, God can step in at every instance. I think it may still be possible to sin in Heaven, but you'd not desire it and you'd get no pleasure out of it. The other side of the coin is that our free will is impacted, but I doubt that. I never been to Heaven, so I can't answer you perfectly on this.
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste Chesterton,

thank you for the post.

There are reasons to do so. As far as we know, nothing but man has reason, nothing but man makes art, poetry and myth. Nothing but man observes, measures, describes and judges the universe. Man is “special” in many senses.

have you heard of Coco the Ape? she can draw and create art and seems to reason every bit as well as some folks that we could probably name

of course we can only really speak about beings on this particular planet and cannot meaningfully indicate our small sample size could be extrapolated throughout the universe even though i understand some Christians hold such views.

The Bible is very adamant that God is one.

i know.

Some believe a deity created the universe and is now absent and unconcerned, or dead. Christians believe God is living, present and concerned with humans.

most Christians do, that's certain.

Are you saying Jehovah God is deluded or lying? Then who created Him? How did He come to exist, how did karma and the Other Shore come to exist?


yes. unfortunately, Chesterton, i cannot explain in any more detail. suffice it to say that the Buddhist Suttas explain in great depth and detail how the deity that believes itself to be the creator arises in a universe.

If you have in mind a deity which did not create, then you have in mind simply one of many created things. The only thing uncreated is Jehovah God. That’s the Christian idea of God, and you can’t get over or behind it.

i know. that is a very, very basic idea of the Christian faith. i had hoped that by indicating i've been on this forum for 5 years, dialoged with just about every Christian that cared to and studied the religion formally for several years, we could dispense with these basics in our discourse and shift to areas which i had overlooked or not considered.

that i do not agree with the teachings of the Christian paradigm does not mean that i do not intellectually grasp them.... and, yes, i know there is a difference.

metta,

~v
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste jamessager,

thank you for the post and the clarifcation.

God always has his powers from the beginning of time and to eternity. Jesus didn't die to gain power. Jesus died so humans could get out of their fate of eternal Hell. Without Jesus, there could be no escaping Hell at all.

that is contained with the axioms of the tradition and thus is inescapable. without accepting those axioms, however, those statements stand as statements of religious belief.


i'm not too keen on going on about what i find difficult about the tradition however i will say that the idea of abdicating ones responsibility for ones actions strikes me as particularly abhorrent.


what is your take on the passage in Genesis wherein God proclaims that he creates both good and evil?

I think God choses not to use his powers in lots of flashy ways in order to bring more glory to his son.

is glory something that deities need or desire in your world view?


thank you for being honest and forthright with your response, many Christians would not have been.

metta,

~v
 
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Chesterton

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I intended to move on to something else with what I was saying, but yes you did specifically say you knew the basics. My bad. I hope others are being more helpful or informative.
 
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GoodNewsJim

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Namaste jamessager,
thank you for the post and the clarifcation.
that is contained with the axioms of the tradition and thus is inescapable. without accepting those axioms, however, those statements stand as statements of religious belief.
You may think it is only a religious statement that we'd all end up in Hell without Jesus. But imagine if you will a place where every being knows all the other beings are evil. How do you think these evil beings would treat other evil beings? Without Jesus, those beings are us, and I think history prior to Christ shows just how evil we are. Even after Christ, people still end up being evil here and there. Without Jesus we'd have Hell to look forward to after we died even if God didn't start the flames.


is glory something that deities need or desire in your world view?
Glory is something God has and always had from the beginning of time. In addition to pain and suffering, Jesus also had to endure the lacking of God's glory shining on him when he was on Earth. One of Jesus' requests to his father was for him to be able to see the glory of God again.
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste jamessager,

thank you for the post.

You may think it is only a religious statement that we'd all end up in Hell without Jesus.

some Christians use a novel definition of the term "religion" to exclude their tradition in some manner. by and large this simply points up the lack of understanding of the term "religion" in the first place.

given that this teaching regarding Jesus and hell is particular to the Christian religion it is a religious teaching.

But imagine if you will a place where every being knows all the other beings are evil. How do you think these evil beings would treat other evil beings?

by and large the idea of evil beings is foreign. generally speaking i understand people that use these ideas to be referring to the quality of a beings nature and i am confused as to how a beings nature can be discerned in such a manner.

that said, i cannot directly answer your question since i have no experience in such situations.

Without Jesus, those beings are us, and I think history prior to Christ shows just how evil we are.

naturally we disagree



i'm confused then... you said that you thought that one of the reasons God didn't use his powers in flashy ways was to bring glory to Jesus.

so.. are you saying that Jesus desires glory??

i suspect we are using different understandings of the term "glory" and thus our confusion.

metta,

~v
 
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vajradhara

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So vajradhara, you don't see people as evil(sinful) by nature.

Do you want to discuss this?

Namaste JamesSager,

thank you for the post.

correct, i do not believe that sentient beings have any inherent nature, good or evil.

we can discuss it if you think it relevant to consideration of the Christian position.

metta,

~v
 
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