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Er, says who?EverlastingMan said:But there arent really any unmoved movers, besides the gods/god.
Does it? It seems quantum mechanics is beginning to question that truism. In any case, the universe itself is not something "in nature."Everything in nature has a cause somewhere.
Does it? It seems quantum mechanics is beginning to question that truism.
Yup! But even this doesnt help when it comes to free will because these uncaused events occur randomly and spontaneously. As such, they can never support free will. Ill use an analogy to illustrate this:Prometheus_ash said:1. All events have causes
The only point which I see as contendable is number one.IN order for this to be a solid claim, it must be true. In order for this to be the case, there must not be uncaused events. The obviouse solution would seem to be to go to quantam mechanics
I fear terminology will defeat us here. By definition, a universe does not contain "nothing."inchristalone221 said:But quantum fluctuations occur only in quantum vacuums, which are essentially seas of particle energy. In a universe that actually contains nothing, there is no reason to believe a quantum event could take place.
I did say my physic was lacking... But my thoughts are expressed in christsalone221's. and your right the universe is natureTeddyKGB said:Does it? It seems quantum mechanics is beginning to question that truism. In any case, the universe itself is not something "in nature."
inchristalone221 said:I agree that there is no such thing as free will, but I am not a "hard determinist." I am a compatibilist in that I think we are responsible for the choices we freely make, but that our free decisions are pre-determined by a myriad of factors.
Now think about this:
1. All effects are determined by their causes.
2. All causes are determined by the first cause (God).
----------------------------------------------------
3. All effects are determined by God.
Quite the argument for total sovereignty (+1 for reformed nutcases like me).
In HIM we live and move and have our being.
--the apostle Paul speaking to an unregenerate audience about the power and sovereignty of God
The beginning of a very interesting and deep discussion. My short answer is: yes, but he is not ethically responsible for those actions.Ioinc said:Does this also not mean that God caused all the evil things to happen .... deliberatly.
He caused the original sin.... he caused all murder, all rape, all abuse?
Is a "reality" wherein nothing exists a reality at all? I would say no. I submit that "nothing" never can be described by, or explained by, or included in anything other than "nothing." Only "nothing" can account for nothing.inchristalone221 said:I stand corrected. Allow me to rephrase. In a reality where nothing exists, a quantum fluctuation cannot occur, as such things are a function of a quantum vacuum (a part of our physical universe).
inchristalone221 said:The beginning of a very interesting and deep discussion. My short answer is: yes, but he is not ethically responsible for those actions.
He is the first mover. Not the mover behind everything. If he is then we have no will.
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