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Really? I say mankind is in trouble with God because they reject reason. You say mankind is in trouble with God because they are being reasonable and rational.
These verses say that the work of the Law (the 10 commandments) is written on the hearts of the nations. Even though they don't have the 10 commandments, they still know that it's wrong to kill, steal, and commit adultery. They still know that they ought to worship God. They have a conscience.
They are not condemned because they violated the Law given to Israel. They are condemned because they've violated their own consciences and the work of the law which is written on their hearts.
I just don't see why you're so hung up on one ambiguous passage in the Epistle to the Hebrews, over against other clear passages in the same letter, and other such passages elsewhere, that state that Jesus never sinned.
Especially when the disambiguation of the passage in question can be made to entirely fit with the other ones. The "this" that "he did once" is "to offer up sacrifice," not with the other riders attached to it.
I wish I knew Greek 'cause I'm sure that would settle this matter even more easily.
I would certainly disagree with that. The first Adam was tempted and it says the 2nd Adam was also tempted. He "humbled himself in fashion as a man" wrote Paul, and the author of Hebrews (also Paul?) said, "he was made lower than the angels for the suffering of death." Death came into this world by a man and it could only be erased by a man... that is what Paul is saying in Romans 5:12-21. He was God in the flesh, I believe that... but he became a man like us in order to save us. And that means he "could have" sinned. He didn't... he wouldn't, but he could have.
We don't have to agree, ok?I’m sorry but I don’t see anything indicating that Jesus is capable of sin in Romans 5. I do see that He was capable if being tempted but that doesn’t necessarily mean He was capable of sin. Jesus being fully man (who is capable of sin) is also fully God (who is not capable of sin). So it really is a tough one to answer. But God having sent Jesus already knowing that He would overcome sin I maintain that it was in fact impossible for Jesus to sin otherwise it would’ve been possible for God’s plan to fail.
We don't have to agree, ok?But here is how I see it....
The first Adam was sinless, the second Adam was sinless. Both were TEMPTED, the bible uses that word. The first Adam gave into that temptation, the second did not. Thus sin and death enter the realm by one, life and ultimately redemption and perfection through the other. But both were men and both were tempted. Yeshua had to place himself in the same place the first Adam was in order to save us. That means he could have... he didn't, but that power was there.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
Rom 5:16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
I know some time has passed - but - I did keep reading..Read on and you'll find the impeccability of Christ to be the historic, orthodox view.
Does God and Christ have free will?
Can they do otherwise (do they have the power or is the power limited)?
God and Christ do not, did not and will not sin because they have the Love and power to do only what is right and they have chosen to do only that which is right.
Deity will not be involved in sinning, so what is the take away for us?
The application is what is important: If the indwelling Holy Spirit (Deity) is involved in all that you do, you cannot sin, the same as Christ did not sin. Quench the Spirit and you get in trouble.
There is more... Paul saying he humbled himself in fashion as a man and the writer of Hebrews (who I also happen to believe was Paul) said he was "made lower than the angels for the suffering of death." So while God, He clearly set it aside to become like us in order to save us.You make a very good point brother Ken but personally unless I can see undeniable proof in the scriptures I feel that I’m compelled by my love and honor for God to say that I cannot believe Jesus would be capable of sin. I’m not saying your wrong I just can’t believe that your right without more substantial evidence. I believe what you are showing is circumstantial evidence. So I don’t see it as undeniable proof. Because while I do agree that Jesus is fully man I also believe that He is fully God.
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...for-jesus-to-sin.8079557/page-3#post-73125066 is your explanation that fits the data of scripture. Jesus chooses freely to obey even though his essential nature does not allow him to sin.You make a very good point brother Ken but personally unless I can see undeniable proof in the scriptures I feel that I’m compelled by my love and honor for God to say that I cannot believe Jesus would be capable of sin. I’m not saying your wrong I just can’t believe that your right without more substantial evidence. I believe what you are showing is circumstantial evidence. So I don’t see it as undeniable proof. Because while I do agree that Jesus is fully man I also believe that He is fully God.
Agreed.There is more... Paul saying he humbled himself in fashion as a man and the writer of Hebrews (who I also happen to believe was Paul) said he was "made lower than the angels for the suffering of death." So while God, He clearly set it aside to become like us in order to save us.
Again though, if you don't see it or agree, that's fine.Be blessed and thanks for the kind reply.
You said:See https://www.christianforums.com/thr...for-jesus-to-sin.8079557/page-3#post-73125066
The application is a disanalogy.
Jesus does not sin because his essential nature cannot sin.
Humans who follow Christ are said to be indwelled but do NOT take on the essential attributes of God.
To follow your analogy to its logical conclusion we would have to propose that:
All Christians are omnipotent, omniscient, etc.
That's really good, I need to look into that book?Agreed.
Since I've been reading St John of Damascus.. I insert this quote of his in further support of your previous point:
the blessed Paul the Apostle says, He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. But obedience is subjection of the real will, not of the unreal will. For that which is irrational is not said to be obedient or disobedient. But the Lord having become obedient to the Father, became so not as God but as man. For as God He is not said to be obedient or disobedient. For these things are of the things that are trader one's band(1), as the inspired Gregorius said. Wherefore, then, Christ is endowed with volition as man.
I’m sorry but I don’t see anything indicating that Jesus is capable of sin in Romans 5. I do see that He was capable if being tempted but that doesn’t necessarily mean He was capable of sin. Jesus being fully man (who is capable of sin) is also fully God (who is not capable of sin). So it really is a tough one to answer. But God having sent Jesus already knowing that He would overcome sin I maintain that it was in fact impossible for Jesus to sin otherwise it would’ve been possible for God’s plan to fail.
There is more... Paul saying he humbled himself in fashion as a man and the writer of Hebrews (who I also happen to believe was Paul) said he was "made lower than the angels for the suffering of death." So while God, He clearly set it aside to become like us in order to save us.
Again though, if you don't see it or agree, that's fine.Be blessed and thanks for the kind reply.
I’m sorry but I don’t see anything indicating that Jesus is capable of sin in Romans 5. I do see that He was capable if being tempted but that doesn’t necessarily mean He was capable of sin. Jesus being fully man (who is capable of sin) is also fully God (who is not capable of sin). So it really is a tough one to answer. But God having sent Jesus already knowing that He would overcome sin I maintain that it was in fact impossible for Jesus to sin otherwise it would’ve been possible for God’s plan to fail.
It's in CCEL here.. (Book 1)That's really good, I need to look into that book?
Think independently for a moment -
Does it make sense for God to make God a priest after the order of a MAN?
If Christ chooses obedience then his nature never takes over to prevent him from sinning.If there is some outside force controlling your choice then, for that choice, you do not have free will.
No I'm not saying that at all. The whole point of the attached discussion was to disprove that assertion. If he chooses A he is freely obeying.You are saying: “Christ cannot make a free will choice when it comes to sinning”, but that is not supported by the fact Christ will not ever sin, so what biblical support do you have for such a conclusion?
You may “personally” feel: “to keep from sinning there would have to be some outside force controlling your personal ability to make a choice, but scripture does not support that.
No not if Christ chooses option a in my post (which again you seemed to misunderstood)If you can take way Christ’s glory in not sinning, you need to take away our being blamed for sinning.
So Paul certainly doesn't make this type of distinction when he tells his audience to operate under or new nature not our old one. Robots wouldn't have the option now would they?Christ is not some robot controlled by a “nature” beyond His control, but is allowing that “nature” (The Spirit of Christ) to lead Him, which after we get the indwelling Holy Spirit we can of our free will allow to control us.
Did you copy the wrong quote perhaps?Think independently for a moment -
Does it make sense for God to make God a priest after the order of a MAN?
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