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It seems like you have to fight to be a part of a group

ValorWoman4Jesus

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It seems that in order to be part of a group that is worth it's weight or of a noble cause, you have to go through some rite of passage to prove that you can be the person that they will accept. However, if God makes you somebody, then why should I stand on my head to prove to people who I am? I am still struggling to find my identity and am unsure where I belong. I realize that I am still not who God meant for me to be. I am not supposed to be somebody I'm not. I am not my whole self yet. I am still in progress. But I do know this: We are to live from the heart. You can't expect to have any Life in God, if You can't be true to the person He made you to be. I see so many fakers out there. I wish to start a campaign in which we all seek God for our true selves. We can't just go through the motions of legalism. Today it seems like many Christian people are going through religious duties and acts and the church is dying in the meantime. People who really make the biggest difference for God's kingdom are those who do it with zeal. Sadly, most people don't find God's true heart. I pray and trust that I will not be one of them. I still need healing in my life from unresolved hurts, yes, but hope for a better life doesn't come by obligations or a list of principles that need to be followed. It comes through being an example of Jesus Christ's compassion to a person in such a way that it change's a person's heart and gives them real strength to really live the life Jesus came to have us live and find purpose and meaning. Hurting people need hope and healing before given a list of steps and rules of what they have to do to pick themselves up by their bootstraps. Grace comes before truth. I have gotten "advice" from people for over 20 years and I have taken the steps, following the advice, taking actions to improve my life and I managed to dig myself out of poverty through sweat and tears. I had to do this alone with very little support. I have also grown spiritually as well, and grown closer to God, but backslid from time to time. It is only by God's grace that I have come the long way that I did. I followed rules and principles and I managed to get free from a co-dependant relationship in 2002 for instance. I was then able to find a husband and get married.

Still I now find myself very empty and heavy hearted on a daily basis, yet I have not been able to cry hardly for years. This is from years of suppressing my true heart and not living in the full love and intimacy of God. I am now weary and worn with the life I worked so hard for now in peril, all the while, my true heart is starting to come to life as it realizes more and more every day that something is not right. Unlike 15-20 years ago when I was in college and starting out, I cannot just take futile steps without there being something really worth doing them for or true hope that they will indeed yield a better future. Jesus was able to have the strength go to the cross for instance, because of the glory set before him.

What I am trying to explain here is not just to exhort you all to treat me better, but to live from your hearts instead of denying the holy desires within you and your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ (Other people misplace them, but that's a different matter). Don't give downtrodden people a formula or a prescription of what they have to do to make their life work for without loving them in a way that makes them feel valuable and giving them strength and hope. It doesn't work! We all need to obey God now matter what. We need to follow his commands. But we cannot be like the Pharisees and tell people what to do, and then abandon them to go at it alone, especially when they are feeling vulnerable lest they fail. We need to help people to feel like they are important and that God has a plan for them and an important purpose for them. We need to help and encourage people to feel like the people God made them to be so that they can flourish instead of expecting them to follow advice that may or may not work without giving them hope and love and affirming them as the valuable people they are first.

When one gives advice without support, affirmation or lifting the person up, it means that they do not accept the person. Plain and simple. If you were already accepted, you would be welcomed and invited over to their house for dinner to hear you speak instead, for one only feels the need to give you advice without support if you are not acceptable(not meeting their standards). And when you are not acceptable, you don't belong, period! No one should fight to be accepted or loved unconditionally (the love isn't unconditional if you have to earn it anyway). People should not have to perform or look a certain way in order to be welcome in a group. The church puts the cart before the horse, and will only help people with what they need help with if they meet certain criteria first. No! Jesus meets us where we are at! You should not have to prove yourself to be welcomed into the fold. Enough!
 
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Albion

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Your concern, Valor Woman, seems to me to be one that is shared by a large number of other people. And there have been famous attempts in the history of the church to overcome the problems you identified. Unfortunately, it's not easy to do. For instance, there are churches ("denominations" or "movements") that started up for basically the reason you put your finger on--to get away from the requirements and legalisms and loyalty to denomination before loyalty to Christ and the Gospel. To some extent they have retained that perspective and try not to dwell on little doctrinal matters that have bitterly divided some other church bodies.

But then we come to the point you also made, that they want some test or compliance with some obligation. And this happens for a reason that is hard to avoid.

If what's in your heart is what matters, how does the assembly know that you are not a phony and/or do not even adhere to the basics of the faith? That then causes them to say, "We have to know that they have at least been baptized/made a profession of faith, etc." OR else, "We don't want to argue over the nature of the Lord's Supper, or the Trinity, etc., but if Mary Lou is sincere in her faith, she'd have at least to show up on Sunday, wouldn't she??" Then "they" begin to judge...although for the best of reasons, they think.

That leads to rules and regulations and pressures at the very time as the body is trying to avoid such things.
 
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Angelquill

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Your concern, Valor Woman, seems to me to be one that is shared by a large number of other people. And there have been famous attempts in the history of the church to overcome the problems you identified. Unfortunately, it's not easy to do. For instance, there are churches ("denominations" or "movements") that started up for basically the reason you put your finger on--to get away from the requirements and legalisms and loyalty to denomination before loyalty to Christ and the Gospel. To some extent they have retained that perspective and try not to dwell on little doctrinal matters that have bitterly divided some other church bodies.

But then we come to the point you also made, that they want some test or compliance with some obligation. And this happens for a reason that is hard to avoid.

If what's in your heart is what matters, how does the assembly know that you are not a phony and/or do not even adhere to the basics of the faith? That then causes them to say, "We have to know that they have at least been baptized/made a profession of faith, etc." OR else, "We don't want to argue over the nature of the Lord's Supper, or the Trinity, etc., but if Mary Lou is sincere in her faith, she'd have at least to show up on Sunday, wouldn't she??" Then "they" begin to judge...although for the best of reasons, they think.

That leads to rules and regulations and pressures at the very time as the body is trying to avoid such things.

It seems to me that what is in Mary Lou's heart ought to be between her and her God. Her public confession of her faith ought to be enough to satisfy the assembly. In time, she will show herself to be a person who lives up to her declaration of faith...or she won't. Pre-judging her only leads to hurt feelings and aggravation.
 
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Albion

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It seems to me that what is in Mary Lou's heart ought to be between her and her God. Her public confession of her faith ought to be enough to satisfy the assembly. .

Ought to be.

However, her 'problem' is that the other people around her don't seem to take that view, and she can't avoid dealing with them even if they're wrong about this.
 
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Angelquill

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I can relate...that is my "problem", as well. In fact, there was a time, years and years ago, when I came very near to letting people drive me from my faith with their "holier than thou" attitudes. God took me in hand...
Let's just say...I've grown up so much since then.
 
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Angelquill

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Albion, haven't you ever noticed that you have to be like, the preacher's wife's sister's nephew or something similar, to be chosen, for instance, to sing the choir's solo, or do a reading, or any such thing? It isn't about commitment, or ability, or even how long one has been a member...it's all about knowing the "RIGHT" people.
And, hey...when did we start closing the church if Christmas happened to fall on a Sunday? When I was a kid, we always had a Christmas service, no matter what day Christmas fell on. Now, we close it up if it's on a Sunday? Who made that decision?
 
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Angelquill

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Why is it okay for anyone to volunteer to come clean the church, or do yardwork...but those same dedicated people are never asked to serve in any capacity that might put them in front of people? Is the church ashamed of them? Or is it that they just don't have the right "connections"?
 
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Angelquill

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I was a member of my church for over five years. I was there every time the doors opened. I sang in the choir, I came in to help clean the church, I volunteered to work in the kitchen during several church "events"...if it needed done, I was your gal.
And you know, in all that time, I never got close enough to anyone to go out for coffee, or any such thing. When I got sick, and I was in the hospital for a couple of weeks, no one came to visit me...not even the pastor. Very few people in that church even knew my name.
No, it wasn't a large church...no more than a couple of hundred members, most of whom were "casual" about coming.
Yeah, I kind of lost my heart for the whole thing. I very nearly lost my faith...
 
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ValorWoman4Jesus

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Why is it okay for anyone to volunteer to come clean the church, or do yardwork...but those same dedicated people are never asked to serve in any capacity that might put them in front of people? Is the church ashamed of them? Or is it that they just don't have the right "connections"?

Yep. I feel as though I am having the same problem with my therapy dog group.
 
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Albion

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Albion, haven't you ever noticed that you have to be like, the preacher's wife's sister's nephew or something similar, to be chosen, for instance, to sing the choir's solo, or do a reading, or any such thing? It isn't about commitment, or ability, or even how long one has been a member...it's all about knowing the "RIGHT" people.

Since you ask...

No, in all the churches I've been associated with, I've not noticed that being a big thing. However, churches vary, and I don't doubt that it happens in some other congregations.

And, hey...when did we start closing the church if Christmas happened to fall on a Sunday? When I was a kid, we always had a Christmas service, no matter what day Christmas fell on. Now, we close it up if it's on a Sunday? Who made that decision?
I've not experienced that...and it surprises me to read this. I have, however, seen the trend towards having Christmas EVE become the main service and Christmas Day a small one without choir or (depending on the denomination) communion. I regret that.
 
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TheDag

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Don't give downtrodden people a formula or a prescription of what they have to do to make their life work for without loving them in a way that makes them feel valuable and giving them strength and hope. It doesn't work! We all need to obey now matter what. We need to follow his commands. But we cannot be like the Pharisees and tell people what to do, and then abandon them to go at it alone, especially when they are feeling vulnerable lest they fail. We need to help people to feel like they are important and that God has a plan for them and an important purpose for them. We need to help and encourage people to feel like the people God made them to be so that they can flourish instead of expecting them to follow advice that may or may not work without giving them hope and love and affirming them as the valuable people they are first.
Yep formula advice is not useful. I remember trying to come up with a workable solution for a quiet time each day (if I could be disciplined enough to do so!) and the response was always "Oh I just get up half an hour earlier". Not great advice for a person who gets up at 3:30 AM like I did back then. So I gave up. In a way it is typical of people quick to jump in with an opinion without listening to all the facts because they want to feel useful or feel like they are part of the group or keen to get your problems out of the way so they can talk about their own. The church is made up of broken people who are often looking for help themselves that it becomes easy to ignore others problems.


When one gives advice without support, affirmation or lifting the person up, it means that they do not accept the person. Plain and simple. If you were already accepted, you would be welcomed and invited over to their house for dinner to hear you speak instead, for one only feels the need to give you advice without support if you are not acceptable(not meeting their standards). And when you are not acceptable, you don't belong, period! No one should fight to be accepted or loved unconditionally (the love isn't unconditional if you have to earn it anyway). People should not have to perform or look a certain way in order to be welcome in a group. The church puts the cart before the horse, and will only help people with what they need help with if they meet certain criteria first. No! Jesus meets us where we are at! You should not have to prove yourself to be welcomed into the fold. Enough!
I have seen this to some degree at some churches but it certainly is not the case at my current church. I also had some friends i knew from a church I used to go to help me out at the worst time of my life. That I had not spoken to them for a few years meant nothing. So there are good christians out there. Don't give up.

The best way to help a person is to listen to what they need. Meet that need then make suggestions. Until I got a hug from someone all the help in the world would not have made a difference because I needed that hug to know I was loved.
 
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ValorWoman4Jesus

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This was actually confirmed in my Group Dynamics class, the class I begged for so desperately back in December. Groups apparently guard their solidarity fiercely. This also happens in the church, as my husband rehashed to me last night. I am also experiencing this in my local therapy dog group. I understand getting to know people until feeling more comfortable with them, for I need that too. My text book discusses tending and befriending as a means of proving yourself. The funny thing is, I have tried to tend and befrien for 15-20 years and still have no close friends to speak of. I trust God to set us up with divine appointments and to put us where He wants us to be for the sake of His kingdom.
 
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