It is not possible to take all of the creation account in Genesis literally.

JackRT · Sep 12, 2019

In my experience the United States is the only nation that has a sizeable fraction of the population adopt the notion of literal and inerrant Bible. Young earth creationism tends to go along with this. Of course these people are doing their level best to export this understanding elsewhere. I wish I understood why this has happened.

public hermit · Sep 12, 2019

JackRT said:
In my experience the United States is the only nation that has a sizeable fraction of the population adopt the notion of literal and inerrant Bible. Young earth creationism tends to go along with this. Of course these people are doing their level best to export this understanding elsewhere. I wish I understood why this has happened.

In my humble opinion, it's a reaction to modernity. Ever since Spinoza put the historicity of the scriptures into question, people have been scrambling to put the rabbit back into the hat. Of course, the reaction is extreme. Some ancient Christians saw a literal interpretation as the lowest form of interpretation (e.g. Origen), especially as concerns the Hebrew scriptures. If you were really spiritual, you would interpret them allegorically. And if there is one kind of interpretation that is as far from literal as can be, it's an allegorical interpretation. When I read the allegorical interpretations of the early Christians I wonder, "How did they get that from the text?" But, such as it was.

Fundamentalism, and therefore literalism, has done well in the States. I think part of it is the inherent anticlericalism of some denominations here. As the Germans were chopping up the scriptures with their forms and source criticism, revivals were sweeping through the backwoods over here. The common person doesn't want to be instructed in interpreting the scriptures. They know their experience, and that's sufficient. I think that's the general attitude here.

I can't tell you how many people told me I would lose my faith if I went to study in a school that wasn't some bible school. They were wrong. My faith is stronger than when I first began. But, then again, my faith doesn't rest on a literal interpretation. My faith rests on the living, raised from the dead, Jesus Christ. Honestly, the way that some Christians treat the scriptures almost verges on idolatry.

miamited · Sep 12, 2019

Hi hal,

Well, I just think that it's essential to faith for His children to believe Him. I also question, as I think I wrote before, "How does God see those who proclaim to be His children, yet go around telling others to deny some of the truths of His word?" You don't seem to think it's important, as a believer, to tell another believer, "Look, we all know that science has proved that the universe is billions/trillions of years old. So we know that's true. If we then 'assume' that the years that Adam lived in the garden don't count in this genealogy which seems to pretty clearly show that the creation is not that old, then we can reconcile that difference between what some think that God has pretty clearly told us with what scientists are also telling us. Voile'!!!! It's almost like magic.

Now, let's just suppose that God is sitting on His throne and He did create this realm of existence just exactly as He has literally told us that He did. He is, after all, God, right? I believe that He can merely command that something be...and it is. What does He think of what that person is doing? Are they the good and faithful servant? We all have a tendency to pick out one or two teachings of the Scriptures and to say to ourselves and others, "Well, this is what counts". All that other stuff is just good to know. But God's word says that no unbeliever will have eternal life. Jesus said, when talking to his disciples that not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will be saved. He then spoke of 'christians' who wouldn't be saved. He described them as people who were claiming of themselves to do mighty and wonderful things in Jesus' name. So, let's please understand that this group of people may likely have well believed the easy stuff. That Jesus is God's Son who lived a life giving us the testimony of his Father and then dying for our sin, being buried and resurrected after three days in the tomb. After all, they all cry out to him Lord, Lord, and they all proclaim to have done great things 'in Jesus' name'. They were obviously people who believed of themselves to be christians and had nailed down the easy stuff. Jesus turns to them and says, "Away from me, you workers of iniquity."

Workers of iniquity. I define that as people whose works were against God's desire for them. Some of us continue to sin such sins as lust and greed and so forth. But is is also a sin to add to God's word. To be a false teacher.

Just something to think about. As I say, these passages just give me pause, when I hear people say that all you have to do is this or that and the rest of it really doesn't matter. However, hopefully you and I can now put this issue to rest as I think we both know pretty clearly how the other understands things.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Cimorene · Sep 12, 2019

miamited said:
Hi cimorene,

I hear you! I was just responding to your earlier post:

You said you'd never met an adult IRL who did take the creation account in Genesis literally...You then finished that thread saying that you'd only met them on this website and then claimed 'they' also believe in flat earth.

There are quite a few YEC among christians. There is even the Creation Museum in KY and the ICR website which supports only YEC. So, I'm saying that you apparently don't get out much from your small circle if you've never met anyone who is YEC IRL. Then you seemed to speak fairly all inclusively that the YEC's you had met on this site were also flat earthers. So I introduced myself and made an attempt to show that, no, there are actually a lot of YEC's that are not flat earthers. In fact, both of the groups I mentioned above to not support flat earth. If you are interested in finding out what YEC's believe and that they aren't nearly all flat earthers, here are some websites you might visit:

Answers in Genesis

Creation | Creation Ministries International

http://www.icr.org/

On this page you can find dozens of sites that support some form of either YEC or some just support the 'God created' approach. A part of the created by design group. I think it always good to at least 'know' some of the things others believe.

True story! My small group, several weeks ago, and I don't know exactly what the main subject was, we were talking about the John who wrote the Revelation of Jesus Christ. I made the comment that he had been boiled in oil before he was exiled to Patmos and you'd have thought I had a third eye on my forehead. The teacher stopped and snickered and asked me where in the world I had gotten that idea. I told him that it has long been a part of church history, where we find most of the accounts of how the original 12 came to their deaths. The Scriptures really don't tell us how the 12 disciples finally met their deaths. We get most of that information from extra-biblical sources.

We do know that John the Baptiest was beheaded and I believe there is some mention of James being put to death, but beyond that, the Scriptures don't really tell us how any of them actually died.

Now here's the part that I found amusing. Last Sunday our pastor was teaching on the Beattitudes and was dealing with the 'blessed are you who are persecuted for my names sake', and guess what? He mentioned how John of the Revelation was boiled in oil before being exiled to Patmos. Well, last night at Wednesday night dinner I asked my small group leader if he had caught it. He said that yes, absolutely he did, and he was going to go ask the pastor where he had gotten that information. The pastor gave him the same answer that I did. It has long been an accepted part of church history, most of the account being handed down by Josephus, who is a fairly well respected historian of the days of the early church being built around Israel.

There are historical records that John, before being exiled, they had first tried to kill him by boiling him alive. However, just like Hannaniah, Mishael and Azzeria, he came up out of the pot completely unscathed by the fiery hot liquid. So they exiled him instead.

So, I just say that sometimes it can be good to look into what others believe. You might come to a greater understanding yourself.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Sorry if there was any confusion from what I wrote. I wasn't saying that the everybody who believes in YEC also believes the Earth is flat, just that the same people who believe the Earth is flat on this forum also believe in YEC. I hope this is clear now. Also that I've never IRL met anybody who believed the Earth is flat or that it's only 5000 yrs old. I've "met" ppl on this forum.

Bc of this forum I've become aware of the relative "popularity" of YEC belief. It's most common in the rural areas, the South, with older ppl & with those who were homeschooled by YEC parents.

I've been coming here since I was in grade 9. So I mean it's not like I haven't seen the links you've given or heard the arguments made many different ways. Look at how many posts I've written here. Unfortunately those sites do not have a positive reputation not bc of their beliefs but bc of dishonest practices like quote mining. They are not credible. It's honestly been damaging to my faith, not beneficial to it which is why I seriously am sorry for having even clicked on this thread.

Cimorene · Sep 12, 2019

miamited said:
Hi again cimorene,

Don't mean to be pushy on the subject, but I did feel led to provide you with some evidence to think on.

According to livescience.com, 4 in 10 Americans believe the earth to be no more than 10,000 years old.

4 in 10 Americans Believe God Created Earth 10,000 Years Ago

This claim is supported by Gallup polling. This understanding of a young created earth has run steady at near 40% since 1985, but has seen some slight downward trend in the last few years. In 2009 Gallup asked the question a little differently by asking how many people believed that evolution answered how we got here or how many believe that we have existed in our present form since the beginning of time. Again there was a 40% response that held to our beginning in our present form.

Now, I see that you are from Canada, and so I did some research on what Canadians believe overall concerning the issue of a young earth.

Friendlyatheist.patheos.com makes the claim that only 21% or our northern neighbors hold to a young earth worldview. That percentage seems to also hold pretty steady among most of the Canadian specific sites that I visited. Oddly enough, when you make that query specific to Canada, most of the sites that, at least first pop up, are atheist websites. So, it could be that the atheists in Canada have done a better job of teaching others to deny the truth of God's word, than they have here in the states. That's just a thought, of course.

So, on your side of the border, it is claimed that 1 in 5 hold to a young earth worldview and on my side, it's 4 in 10. That breaks down to about 7.5 million Canadians and 132 million Americans. Just to give you some idea as to how popular or not the young earth worldview is.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

The link from Live Science that you posted is 5 yrs old.

Having spent time on this forum reading what YECs have posted I know now that this part of the article is totally correct

Knowledge key

Most of the people who believed in evolution also said they were knowledgeable about the theory, whereas those who said they were not too familiar with the theory also were less likely to believe in it.

Americans' belief in creationism is at odds with scientific consensus. Almost all scientists who study human origins believe that we evolved from other life-forms over millions of years. In fact, humans, or individuals in the genus Homo, are said to have emerged on Earth some 2.5 million years ago.

Like I wrote b4 belief in YEC is very much influenced by culture & demographics. This forum has shown me that repeatedly. From what I've seen here most of the ppl who believe in it live in the South or in rural areas. They tend to either be older or to be young & have been homeschooled by YEC parents and never had a single science class in their lives not taught by somebody who believed in YEC.

There are ppl in Canada who believe in YEC. They mainly are fundamentalist Baptists who live in rural areas & homeschool or go to Baptist schools using American YEC textbooks. Like I said I go to one of the largest universities here & have asked about YEC on our forum. My friend who is on here & goes to a major uni in Cali has done the exact same. Just like with here ppl have privacy on the forums, they use aliases. So it's not like ppl who are YEC were subject to embarrassment or something if they answered honestly. It's just not what students at either uni believe.

miamited · Sep 12, 2019

Hi cimorene,

Thanks for your response.

Cimorene said:
just that the same people who believe the Earth is flat on this forum also believe in YEC.

Oh, well that's the opposite of what you said. You said that all the YEC's you'd met also believed in flat earth. I would agree that most flat earthers are also YEC's, although there are some who do believe the earth has been flat for a zillion years.

Cimorene said:
Bc of this forum I've become aware of the relative "popularity" of YEC belief. It's most common in the rural areas, the South, with older ppl & with those who were homeschooled by YEC parents.

I would also pretty much agree with that demographic. I'm a born again believer and I choose to worship with a baptist denominated fellowship in my little town.

Funny story. I used to be a Gideon (those are the folks that put the bibles in hotel rooms and doctor's offices and hand out the little paperback new testaments). I've always considered that they were likely believers of the literal interpretation of the Genesis account, because most of them worship with baptist fellowships also. So, I'm coming back from a distribution with a brother and we got to talking about the truths of the Scriptures, and I made mention of understanding that it is all a created realm and that according to the Scriptures seemed to be dated about 6,000 years. He looked at me aghast and said, "You don't really believe that, do you?"

Cimorene said:
The link from Live Science that you posted is 5 yrs old.

Yes, and the Scriptures are about 4,000 years old but we still accept it and study it to find truths of God. Surely a link to a five year old site doesn't necessarily have any relationship to whether the points being discussed are true or not...or do you believe that old stuff, like me, probably isn't credible?

Anyway, just be careful about believing something just because it may be a more popular belief. I keep reading in your response this, "Oh, that's just some silly idea that only a few backwards people believe in." Jesus said, that there are two paths out of this life. One is very, very broad and many there be that walk upon it. The other is very, very narrow and few there be that find it. So, for me, when someone says to me, "Oh that's not a very popular belief among christians", that's the one I at least want to investigate because I believe that there's going to be some difference that those who do receive God's promise of eternal life, will have believed and understood that the main stream just didn't get.

There is also, and I've put this out earlier on this thread, Jesus' words to his disciples that a lot of christians are going to be turned away as workers of iniquity.

If you don't mind staying, can I ask why you don't believe that God's accounting of the time that this realm He has created, in order that we may have life upon the earth, is true? As you do seem to have been troubled by those supporting the idea, I'll understand if you don't want to answer.

God bless you,
In Christ, ted

miamited · Sep 12, 2019

Hi cimorene,

One last point I'd like to make on the subject of beliefs. When we read Paul's letter to the Romans, he tells us that the 'day will come'. He also writes to Timothy about the 'day coming' when people will not put up with sound doctrine.

I take from that, as we live out our lives, what we believe, as to the real truth, about the things of God is going to become less and less popular rather than more and more popular. So, when you say that YEC seems to be a belief held by 'older' folk, or folk who are raised by some old understanding of what faith in God is like, it's just worth considering that a lot of the 'newer' understandings of things may be exactly what Paul warned us of believing. Just another point to consider.

He warned Timothy that a time was coming when people would not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, he wrote, they will surround themselves by a crowd of people who will tell them what they're itching ears want to hear. So, it's just possible that you're in a large university surrounded by a crowd of people telling you what your itching ears want to hear, isn't it? Possible?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Cimorene · Sep 12, 2019

miamited said:
Hi cimorene,

Thanks for your response.

Oh, well that's the opposite of what you said. You said that all the YEC's you'd met also believed in flat earth. I would agree that most flat earthers are also YEC's, although there are some who do believe the earth has been flat for a zillion years.

No, that's not the opposite of what I said. I'm so incredibly sorry if that's how it came across. I am so incredibly sorry for having made the error of clicking on this thread. I have tried to clarify the statement as best I can but you want to just beat me over the head repeatedly with what you think I said. I'm exasperated. It is absolutely the case that some of the YECs on here also believe the earth is flat. I just made the error of straying into such a thread.

I've also repeatedly explained that I've never "met" anybody who believes that the Earth is only thousands of yrs old. I've encountered strangers on the internet who say that's what they believe. I don't quantify that as having met the person.

It's foolish to even engage in a debate over it so I'm done. Believe whatever you want. Christians should base their faith on Christ.

If you don't mind staying, can I ask why you don't believe that God's accounting of the time that this realm He has created, in order that we may have life upon the earth, is true? As you do seem to have been troubled by those supporting the idea, I'll understand if you don't want to answer.

It's not God's accounting of the time. That's entirely man's flawed interpretation, ridiculously based on man's translations of scripture. God is not a liar. It's undeniable that our Earth is not thousands of yrs old. He's provided the evidence of that and to deny it is just to turn from his creations to the faulty interpretations of men. No thanks. I'm troubled by the antics of creationists. I'm troubled by how they've pointlessly caused friction between faith & science and contributed to the exodus of young ppl from the faith.

He warned Timothy that a time was coming when people would not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, he wrote, they will surround themselves by a crowd of people who will tell them what they're itching ears want to hear. So, it's just possible that you're in a large university surrounded by a crowd of people telling you what your itching ears want to hear, isn't it? Possible?

Have you ever considered the possibility that it is young earth creationists who are not putting up with sound doctrine? That YECs instead surround themselves by a crowd of people who will tell you what your itching ears want to hear? So, it's just possible that you're on creationists forums, you're in creationists threads, you're in a church in the South, surrounding yourself by a crowd of people telling you what your itching ears want to hear. Possible? Yes.

I'll unwatch the thread and stay away. I've learned the lesson.

RTP76 · Sep 13, 2019

Probably too late to bring up, but if the tree of life is a metaphor, what exactly was the cherubim with the flaming swords guarding the path to? Does a metaphor need guarding?

Scripture portrays cherubs as being angelic beings, who according to Genesis, apparently have the ability to interact/affect physical beings (namely Adam and Eve)--in an adverse way should they try to sneak back into the garden and get to the tree of life.

So, here we have created angelic beings protecting a garden (Eden, portrayed as a physical/literal place), from humans (portrayed as physical/literal beings), preventing their entering a path (a physical/literal surface humans would walk along), leading to... a metaphor (though scripture portrays as a physical/literal tree with physical/literal fruit, from which physical/literal beings would eat)?

Queller · Sep 14, 2019

Tolworth John said:
Why are you demanding a literal day?
astronaunts in space and submariners don't have literal days, they both use 'clocks' to measure the passing of time.

And just what do you think their clocks are based on?

Thanks for proving my point.

Why do you assume that God cannot measure the passing of time?

I don't. Why do you assume that all the days of creation must be 24-hour days?

Remember, morning and evening are concepts that are only given meaning in the context of the earth rotating on its axis.

miamited · Sep 15, 2019

Hi queller,

You wrote:

Queller said:
Remember, morning and evening are concepts that are only given meaning in the context of the earth rotating on its axis.

I believe that to be an absolutely true statement. Evening and morning have nothing whatsoever to do with the sun or moon. They are merely the terms that God has used since the beginning of the creation to define two equal halves of the day. Just as today, we use a.m. and p.m. to define two equal havles of a day. However, our a.m. and p.m. are determined by the sun passing over the meridian (middle) of the sky. But they are both used to divide the 'day' into two smaller but equal parts.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Pavel Mosko · Sep 16, 2019

Chadrho said:
The title is a bit overstated. A more tempered, and personal, version would be, "I find it very difficult to believe those who say they take all of the creation account in Genesis literally."

I am Old Earth Creationist. I take it seriously. The only problems with the Genesis account is that many people dogmatically adhere to the strict 24 hour definition of Yom/Day. Essentially people have allowed the Scopes Monkey Trial to dogmatically define the Faith! Before that time, the Yom 24 hour day was generally assumed as the orthodox reading of text by the Church Fathers but this was never made any kind of an official dogma, only in Fundamentalist Christianity of the 1800s in America and later around the world was this the case.

Anyway you should read or watch some stuff by Hugh Ross. The Creation account and science and the fossil record can easily be harmonized.

Pavel Mosko · Sep 16, 2019

Chadrho said:
2) In Genesis 2:17 we are told of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil." I ask myself, "What kind of tree is that? How do I form a literal conception of that kind of tree?" I challenge anyone reading my words to try, at this moment, to form a literal conception in their minds of such a tree. I contend, without having to try really hard to do so, one cannot form such a conception. Why? Because it is a metaphor. What does that fruit look like in your mind?

Here is the important part. Even if someone were able to take all of the creation account in Genesis literally, it would do them no good. What matters is not affirming its historical reliability. What matters is grasping the spiritual truths being communicated in the account, e.g. God exists, God is Creator, creation is not God, creation is good, humanity is created in the divine image, sin is a killer, humanity is in need of redemption, a promise of redemption has been made, etc.

People forget that this is not just the Word of God, this is also a cultural work. The stuff in Genesis revolves the ancient near middle eastern culture. Much of this account has Egyptian and Babylonian iconography and reflects other themes mentioned in other contemporary tales like Gilgamesh etc.

public hermit · Sep 16, 2019

Pavel Mosko said:
I am Old Earth Creationist. I take it seriously. The only problems with the Genesis account is that many people dogmatically adhere to the strict 24 hour definition of Yom/Day. Essentially people have allowed the Scopes Monkey Trial to dogmatically define the Faith! Before that time, the Yom 24 hour day was generally assumed as the orthodox reading of text by the Church Fathers but this was never made any kind of an official dogma, only in Fundamentalist Christianity of the 1800s in America and later around the world was this the case.

Anyway you should read or watch some stuff by Hugh Ross. The Creation account and science and the fossil record can easily be harmonized.

I'll take a look at the resources you've posted. I am open to hearing any attempts to harmonize our current scientific understanding with Genesis. My stated position is that it is a category mistake, in that it is an attempt to reconcile scientific theories with a revelation concerning a transcendent God. Will there points of contact? Sure. But, attempts to harmonize with ultimately minimize the particular virtues of each. And, as you pointed out, Genesis employs imagery that we find in other cultures. I am somewhat familiar with Gilgamesh. Having said all that, I have been wrong many times before and I pretty much assume I will be again.

Tolworth John · Sep 16, 2019

Queller said:
And just what do you think their clocks are based on?

Thanks for proving my point.

I don't. Why do you assume that all the days of creation must be 24-hour days?

Remember, morning and evening are concepts that are only given meaning in the context of the earth rotating on its axis.

There are two ways to understand any written document.
1/ to read what is in the document.
2/toread previous ideas into a document.

Hebrew experts all confirm that the author of genesis intended to convey the idea that creation took place over 6 literal days.
That is why I believe in a yec, it is what the bible teaches.

miamited · Sep 16, 2019

Hi all,

Of course, one of the things that I think confuses many in this debate, is that so many seem to concentrate on the word 'yom' or day. I think that any language expert will tell you that day is one of those words that must have context. It can mean at least a couple of different spans of time.

This 'day' is Monday. That means that this entire 24 hour period is Monday.

I'll come over during the 'day' tomorrow. That generally means that someone is going to visit during what most consider the regular going about time of the day. It's generally considered a somewhat shorter time span than the full 24 hour day.

In the day that King Ahab reigned. That would mean to someone that one is speaking of a period of time in which King Ahab was the king. It is much longer than a 24 hour day.

So, the word day has to have context in order to be properly understood as to the span of time that is being intended by the use of the word. God has done that! He contextualized each day as being defined as the day that consists of an evening and a morning.

When we consider all of the few spans of time that the word day might intend, there is only one definition of the word day that spans the time of an evening and a morning. God knows this. He knew it 4,000 years ago when He prompted Moses to write the Pentateuch. God knew, just as He prompted Paul to tell Timothy about the time coming when men would not put up with sound doctrine, that a time would also come when men would try to obfuscate His account of the creation by haggling over what the word 'day' would have meant. So God, in his infinite wisdom prompted Moses to write down the account of the creation in this way..."thus ended the evening and the morning of the first day." He didn't allow Moses to just write..."thus ended the first day."

Now, we are, each one individually free to ignore the contextual clues found in God's word and just argue over what possibly could 'day' have meant. I think it's not the proper way to address a solid study of God's word, however.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Pavel Mosko · Sep 16, 2019

Chadrho said:
My stated position is that it is a category mistake, in that it is an attempt to reconcile scientific theories with a revelation concerning a transcendent God.

There is a saying "All Truth is God's Truth". That really is true if you study the Lexical definition of Truth, especially from the Greek where Alethia has the meaning of truth in the objective sense. I really believe this whole situation is like the parable of the "Eight Blind Wise Men and the Elephant".
Blind men and an elephant - Wikipedia

God's truth is the Logos. It may not be entirely in our reach, but we can do what the wise men of the story didn't do, basically talk to each other and combine different perspectives and gain a better picture of the elephant.

Besides that there are some people who are more bullish on the notion of revelation contained in the Bible that it speaks of not just spiritual things but there are some verses that hint at or imply certain things that would later be scientific discoveries. Ross grew up an agnostic but converted from studying the Bible and Christianity (a very unique testimony). He vary happily uses his knowledge of the Bible and Scientific discoveries etc. together as an Evangelism platform for atheists which is why there are so many atheist web sites against him! There also are a legion of Fundamentalist web sites against him since they hate his use of the Bible in Genesis.

lismore · Sep 26, 2019

Chadrho said:
Does what I am saying make sense?

Hello Chadrho. I think that's one of the purposes of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It gives you a glimpse into a more real reality. God Bless

LaBèlla said:
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

True. From our limited perspective we give our opinion. But God's perspective is much higher. God Bless

public hermit · Sep 26, 2019

lismore said:
Hello Chadrho. I think that's one of the purposes of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It gives you a glimpse into a more real reality. God Bless

True. From our limited perspective we give our opinion. But God's perspective is much higher. God Bless

Are you implying I don't have the Holy Spirit?

lismore · Sep 26, 2019

Chadrho said:
Are you implying I don't have the Holy Spirit?

No. God Bless

It is not possible to take all of the creation account in Genesis literally.

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