It is my contention that John 3:16 has been forever mistranslated....

billybtennessee · Dec 17, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
fallen angels are sinners so that means all ? of course it doesn't .

No, angels were not included. Moot point brother. We, believers, are commanded to take the gospel to "all the world", to "every creature". Yes, humans of course, don't be offering to animals or angels. This is who (mankind) the gospel is for. None of those we are commanded to take it to are excluded. That is, 'all the world', 'every creature', the meaning is very clear and simple. All are called to repentance, and to come to God through His Son Jesus Christ. Not all will. That does not, in any way, change who the gospel is for, or where it is to be taken. This whole thread is moot in that regard. Will not change that any.

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2011

billybtennessee said:
No, angels were not included. Moot point brother. We, believers, are commanded to take the gospel to "all the world", to "every creature". Yes, humans of course, don't be offering to animals or angels. This is who (mankind) the gospel is for. None of those we are commanded to take it to are excluded. That is, 'all the world', 'every creature', the meaning is very clear and simple. All are called to repentance, and to come to God through His Son Jesus Christ. Not all will. That does not, in any way, change who the gospel is for, or where it is to be taken. This whole thread is moot in that regard. Will not change that any.

if angels who sinned are not included then all who sinned cannot mean every person is included in the atonement . the atonement actually did something immutable

heymikey80 · Dec 17, 2011

So "the world is passing away" refers only to people?

No, the Gospel is taken to every creature. It confronts spiritual powers in rebellion with their doom, and announces to all those downtrodden by this worlds sinfulness of impending judgment.

billybtennessee · Dec 17, 2011

heymikey80 said:
"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1

So does everyone have an advocate with the Father -- Jesus Christ the righteous? Because if Christ Jesus is advocating the same for Christian and non-Christian alike, and to Christ Jesus has been committed the Judgment, then 1 John 2:2 proves too much. Whereas the rest of Scripture states that some people shall not be saved by Christ, this passage would indeed deduce to universal salvation.

That's largely why Calvinists reject this interpretation of 1 John 2:1: it oversells the point.

A point much more in line with Scripture is that Christ is the one appointed for turning aside God's wrath: so that if He does so, then the wrath is indeed turned aside. But if He doesn't -- well, I hope they're wearing asbestos underpants. That's the position of Calvinists for this passage: that Jesus is the sole one with this role, in redemption of the Universe (that is, the "kosmos"). But He's not actually propitiating for each and every person -- nothing's really stated about individual people in this verse.

I find this specific verse vacuous on universality, and here's why.

The verse doesn't have two conjoined groups it saves. It's not "all men and those who believe" -- it's "all men especially (or, particularly) believing". That one group of believers is not even in question.

Plus, as it's understood in this way, again, it proves too much. If God saves all men, and then particularly saves believers -- well, what's the result? God saves all men. But no, it's not two groups -- it's "all men particularly believers".

We do this all the time -- particularly now. "all" isn't pervasive, it's a modifier of the nouns in the sentence; "particularly" is an additional modifier to items in the sentence, including apparently the phrase "all men". "all ... particularly" should therefore be understood in its common usage of the day: not "each and every one", as that's represented in Greek in another way when the writer/speaker wants to assure us of that situation.

It simply means Jesus Christ came and died for sin, which all have done. The gospel is for all mankind, all are called to repent and believe through Jesus Christ. Quite scriptural. Quite accurate. Will not be changing. God Bless brother.

heymikey80 · Dec 17, 2011

billybtennessee said:
It simply means Jesus Christ came and died for sin, which all have done. The gospel is for all mankind, all are called to repent and believe through Jesus Christ. Quite scriptural. Quite accurate. Will not be changing. God Bless brother.

I would suggest engaging one verse or another. Two verses were proffered.

The second verse proffered doesn't even come close to this issue. It doesn't even mention sin. So I guess the critique of that verse stands.

Relevant to the first verse, this misses the point that the Gospel means the whole of creation is going to be redeemed.

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. Rom 8:19-22

billybtennessee · Dec 17, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
if angels who sinned are not included then all who sinned cannot mean every person is included in the atonement . the atonement actually did something immutable

Brother angels are not offered salvation through Jesus Christ. This point of yours is moot, as already stated. It is scripture that shows us that. And scripture, also, shows us, that the gospel, of Jesus Christ, is for all mankind. We take the gospel to all mankind. That is what we were commanded, and need to be doing. Calling all to repent and believe the gospel. Stop all this fruitless and moot debate of the theologies of the two camps who constantly fight and accuse.

The gospel is good news. Salvation is to be preached and offered to all, through our Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation is in Jesus Christ. Not calvinism. Not arminianism. Salvation, soteriology, is in Jesus Christ. We ABIDE in Him. Be found IN HIM. What theological group, which camp, has nothing at all to do with salvation through Jesus Christ. Only in Jesus Christ is salvation found. I am glad we can stress this necessary point so much here. God Bless.

simonpeter · Dec 17, 2011

Let's simplify this. If Jesus had died for everyone, then even the unbeliever would be saved. But even non-Calvinists would object to that! So we must conclude that Jesus only died for the elect.

billybtennessee · Dec 17, 2011

heymikey80 said:
I would suggest engaging one verse or another. Two verses were proffered.

The second verse proffered doesn't even come close to this issue. It doesn't even mention sin. So I guess the critique of that verse stands.

Relevant to the first verse, this misses the point that the Gospel means the whole of creation is going to be redeemed.

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. Rom 8:19-22

No one proposed the whole of creation is going to be redeemed. Point is/was, the verse is a warning. And, point is, the gospel is for all mankind. Sorrry, the verse in Timothy is in another thread. But as for 'all the world' it means that.

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2011

billybtennessee said:
Brother angels are not offered salvation through Jesus Christ. This point of yours is moot, as already stated. It is scripture that shows us that. And scripture, also, shows us, that the gospel, of Jesus Christ, is for all mankind. We take the gospel to all mankind. That is what we were commanded, and need to be doing. Calling all to repent and believe the gospel. Stop all this fruitless and moot debate of the theologies of the two camps who constantly fight and accuse.

The gospel is good news. Salvation is to be preached and offered to all, through our Lord Jesus Christ. Salvation is in Jesus Christ. Not calvinism. Not arminianism. Salvation, soteriology, is in Jesus Christ. We ABIDE in Him. Be found IN HIM. What theological group, which camp, has nothing at all to do with salvation through Jesus Christ. Only in Jesus Christ is salvation found. I am glad we can stress this necessary point so much here. God Bless.

your original point was that all means all because all sinned . I mentioned Angels sinning and you say .... all doesn't mean all . mmmmmmmmm

"We are all sinners, so that means for all."

heymikey80 · Dec 17, 2011

billybtennessee said:
No one proposed the whole of creation is going to be redeemed. Point is/was, the verse is a warning. And, point is, the gospel is for all mankind. Sorrry, the verse in Timothy is in another thread. But as for 'all the world' it means that.

So the whole of creation is not going to be redeemed, though it's "awaiting its redemption" according to Paul?

I would respond that the whole of creation is indeed going to be redeemed -- just not every individual part of creation.

heymikey80 · Dec 17, 2011

simonpeter said:
Let's simplify this. If Jesus had died for everyone, then even the unbeliever would be saved. But even non-Calvinists would object to that! So we must conclude that Jesus only died for the elect.

"If Jesus had died for [the salvation of] everyone ...", yes. (I've already been down the rabbit trail as to the non-soteriological "died for everyone".)

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2011

heymikey80 said:
So the whole of creation is not going to be redeemed, though it's "awaiting its redemption" according to Paul?

I would respond that the whole of creation is indeed going to be redeemed -- just not every individual part of creation.

Gotta smile at this (of course I agree ) you have painted redemption wider than many wish to go , and narrower than many can stand

thick brush- thin brush

---------------- Listening to: Genesis - Cul-De-Sac via FoxyTunes

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 17, 2011

simonpeter said:
Let's simplify this. If Jesus had died for everyone, then even the unbeliever would be saved. But even non-Calvinists would object to that! So we must conclude that Jesus only died for the elect.

He also shortens the days of the great tribulation for the elect's sake

NKJV) Matthew 24:22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

NKJV) Mark 13:20 "And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-39/#post52748967
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
He also shortens the days of the great tribulation for the elect's sake

NKJV) Matthew 24:22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

NKJV) Mark 13:20 "And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7392923-39/#post52748967
How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

yes , why doesn't it say for everyone's sake .....

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 17, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
yes , why doesn't it say for everyone's sake .....

The ones that do not believe will be coming against those that do, and according to Reve 13, even some of the saints will fall to the sword and many will be led captive....thoughts?

Luke 21:24 And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Reve 11:2/13:10]

Reve 13:10 If any to-captivity, into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.
[Luke 21:24]

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
The ones that do not believe will be coming against those that do, and according to Reve 13, even some of the saints will fall to the sword and many will be led captive....thoughts?

Luke 21:24 And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Reve 11:2/13:10]

Reve 13:10 If any to-captivity, into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints.
[Luke 21:24]

so the Lord purposefully shortens human history for the elects sake .... not for the sake of any none elect ? mmmm God isn't holding back His Sovereignty much .

heymikey80 · Dec 17, 2011

billybtennessee said:
Sorrry, the verse in Timothy is in another thread. But as for 'all the world' it means that.

Not a problem for the ambiguity in response.

If "Savior of all men" is meant, then there's another serious consistency problem. Let's put in another synonym: "Rescuer of all men". That'd mean Jesus is going to rescue all men -- or fail at His appointment. That's going to be a big problem with, say, Matthew 25. It's apparent the goats are trying to get in. They want to get in. Why doesn't Jesus rescue them?

An alternative is that Jesus is the Savior for humanity as a whole. But then it doesn't account for the next qualifier -- an adverb -- "particularly".

Another point of contact on this issue: punctuation is extremely rare in NT Greek, and doesn't include commas.

"Savior of all who specifically believe."

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 17, 2011

cygnusx1 said:
so the Lord purposefully shortens human history for the elects sake .... not for the sake of any none elect ? mmmm God isn't holding back His Sovereignty much .

Ya think?

eric89 · Dec 17, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
The ones that do not believe will be coming against those that do, and according to Reve 13, even some of the saints will fall to the sword and many will be led captive....thoughts?

..thoughts? What about once saved always saved. even some of the saints will fall to the sword" ?

TUIP now becomes TUI.

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
Ya think?

yes , I think it manifests God is not part Sovereign ----

------------ Listening to: Bob Dylan - Are You Ready via FoxyTunes

It is my contention that John 3:16 has been forever mistranslated....

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