It is my contention that John 3:16 has been forever mistranslated....

cygnusx1 · Dec 13, 2011

Well said brother ^

"I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." 1 Corinthians 9:22

Notice once again the words "all men" are in the verse , does this verse teach that Paul became all things to every single human who ever lived ?

Did Paul become all things ? or again does that word 'all' have a relative meaning ?
was Paul willing to sin to save men ? Of course not , as always , "all" is defined by the context!

so here we have Paul saying he became all things to all men ......... but for what purpose ?

Was it so that all men would be saved ? was it so that all men could be saved ? was it because of a belief that God wanted the salvation of all men ?

No!

Notice his aim is clearly spelled out .........."that I might by all means save some"

why would Paul be only aiming at saving some if he wanted and God wanted to save everyone who ever lived ?

Then comes the reply , "ah , but Paul knew it wasn't God's Decree , Plan , and purpose to save everyone , so he didn't aim at that which was UNOBTAINABLE "

Precisely!
and that is the correct understanding of Paul in 1 Corinthians 9 and 1 Timothy 2.

cygnusx1 · Dec 13, 2011

Let's get real !

all those who bleat on about God WILLING that we should pray for every single person ....... just how many of them have done it ?

When was the last time you heard a Christian pray for Judas ?

and just what is the aim of our prayers in 1 Tim 2 ?

are we commanded to pray that God save everybody ?

here it is .......

..........that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.1Tim 2:2

So far the argument runs like this :

It is said that because we are commanded to pray for "all men" that God wills the salvation of the same ... "all men"

yet if it can be shown from God's word that God forbids prayer to some men , then the meaning of "all men " in 1 Timothy 2 will need to be correctly understood as there are many ways of understanding "all men" without it meaning every single man , women and child.

For the set pas, (Nominative singular masculine of which pantas is the Accusative masculine plural) we find the following meaning elements listed in Louw & Nida (Semantic Domain GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON: United Bible Societies 1st edit. 1988)

pas a. all
b. any
c. total
d. whole
e. every kind of

Now a) above will unparcel to reveal: A1: All without exception, and ...
A2 All without distinction

And e) above will unparcel to reveal: E1 some of all sorts, and
E2 all manner of

Now which of these meanings did the Holy Ghost intend us to take as being the correct one to fit 1 Tim. 2:4? What do we do? Shall we say, Oh, I like this one, I’ll make it this one? Or, I feel led to A1, I’m certain that’s what God intended, I feel the witness within me? The Arminians insist on A1. On what grounds?
But now, what about the context? And what about the whole analogia fidei, by which we are to be guided when interpreting any difficult text such as this? Well first, the whole scope and tenor of Scripture shout that the Arminian interpretation A1 will put the text in contradiction to the Divine decrees. Knowing this, the Arminians do their utmost to extract as much anti-Calvinist mileage out of this text as they possibly can.

But manifestly, meaning elements e), and E1, and E2 will fit beautifully, and eliminate any contradiction with the rest of Scripture. That is, that God "will have all manner of men to be saved". In an age like the 1st Cent. AD, long before the rise of egalitarian democracies, when society was heavily stratified socially, and racial prejudices inflamed, it would have been vitally important to draw attention to the fact that God’s salvation was not only for one racial group, (the Jews, for instance, and much of the New Testament addresses precisely that question) or for one class of Society. Not only peasants, and slaves, but even middle class professionals and even rulers were to be addressed with the Gospel ("every creature", was emphasized, Mark 16:15). It was important to emphasize that "some of all sorts" of people were to be saved, by the Divine decree. And in historical practice, that is precisely how it has worked out, not all men without exception, but some of all sorts.

Now, it remains to examine the immediate context to the verse concerned. Notice how the phrase "all men" is coupled not only to the phrase "to be saved", but also to the clause: "to come unto the knowledge of the truth". In fact, in the Greek the coupling is closer than in the English. So it is God’s will that "all men" come "unto the knowledge of the truth" as well as that they be saved. Manifestly, they cannot be saved, without first coming unto the knowledge of the truth. (Rom. 10:14). And equally manifest is the fact that down through all the Old Testament period, and through the New Testament period, it has not been the will of God that "all men without exception" should come "unto the knowledge of the truth", but it has manifestly and indubitably been His will that "all manner of men", or "all kinds of men" should so come, and be saved. Some indeed, as Saint John says, "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9 and cf. Rev. 11:9). Not all without exception.

Let the reader judge, what about all the billions of human beings absolutely excluded from the knowledge of the Gospel, and therefore salvation, for millennia? The millions of pre-Columbian America, the vast billions of China, and the East, and the manifold tribes of Africa ... all precluded from viewing the Gospel dispensation for most of the history of the world. Which interpretation of 1 Tim. 2:3-4 fits with reality.

But this is not all. Again looking at the immediate context of our verse we see in verse one preceding it the phrase "all men" used by the apostle again. The same Greek words are used as in verse 4 except for a change in the flexions for case endings. The apostle exhorts us to pray for "all men", an impossible task, if "all without exception is meant", for we are not allowed to pray for the dead, or for those who have committed the unpardonable sin. (I John 5:16). The Apostle makes it clear in verse two that by "all" in verse one he means "all kinds of" men, when he specifies that prayers should be made even for kings and all those in authority, that is, for those even of that exalted type of men who in most instances in those days were enemies that persecuted Christians, but from amongst whom God was pleased to save some.

We conclude therefore that the Holy Ghost wrote by the apostle that God willed "all kinds of men" to be saved. The interpretation is in beautiful harmony with the analogia fidei, the context and all the sound principles of exegesis, and the science of linguistics. A threefold cord is not quickly broken. (Eccl. 4:12).

http://www.pristinegrace.org/media.php?id=312

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 13, 2011

eric89 said:
Why not ask a Greek CF member e,g Philotel. I suspect it is because it would not be what you want to hear.

Do you mean Philothei?

What would she say that one would not want to hear?

heymikey80 · Dec 14, 2011

eric89 said:
My point was why not ask a Greek expert on Greek language.

Y'mean Middle Greek? I didn't realize Philothei was an expert on Middle Greek.

Kristos · Dec 14, 2011

yeah, let's set a lower standard - more achievable. That makes sense.

Charles Spurgeon · Dec 14, 2011

eric89 said:
The problem with the calvinist interpretation of 'whosoever wills' is where did the 'will' come from. Whether a good 'wil'l or evil 'will' ?

God of course. Predestined before the foundation of the world. So Calvinist, although in a round about fashion, still falsely accuse God as the author of sin. No escape, despite there grammatical gunpowder.

Can they not see their man made fallacies ? Seems not. Is it because God has hardened them or is it their pride that is the cause ?

Perhaps the first cause is that God predestined them to be over proud thinking they know the secrets of God.

Remember, the "whosoever will" isn't in the Greek....

Kristos · Dec 14, 2011

I honestly don't see how your translation changes anything.

If you really wanted to get an idea about how this verse was understood through time, you might want to check translations into other languages - like Syrian, Coptic and Slavonic.

Here are two literal translations for ya:

(LITV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

(YLT) for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

cygnusx1 · Dec 14, 2011

well said brother ^

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 15, 2011

It is my contention that John 3:16 has been forever mistranslated....

Epiphoskei said:
You're not one to talk. You changed the subject to something irrelevant so you could play "Gotcha, Calvinists!" instead of addressing the OP. I gave you a brief answer, but you've been indulged far enough.

If anyone wants to address the translation of John 3:16, go ahead.

Which bible version do you prefer to do that with?

Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt

NKJV) John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

NASB) John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Rotherham) John 3:16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,--that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding.

Young) John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Greek NT - Textus Rec.)
John 3:16 outwV gar hgaphsen o qeoV ton kosmon wste ton uion autou ton monogenh edwken ina paV o pisteuwn eiV auton mh apolhtai all ech zwhn aiwnion

Greek NT - W-H )
John 3:16 outwV gar hgaphsen o qeoV ton kosmon wste ton uion ***** ton monogenh edwken ina paV o pisteuwn eiV auton mh apolhtai all ech zwhn aiwnion

Greek NT - Byz./Maj.)
John 3:16 outwV gar hgaphsen o qeoV ton kosmon wste ton uion autou ton monogenh edwken ina paV o pisteuwn eiV auton mh apolhtai all ech zwhn aiwnion

Epiphoskei · Dec 15, 2011

I use the UBS 4th Edition Greek, but it doesn't really seem to make a difference which version we use in this particular text.

spiritwarrior37 · Dec 15, 2011

It is plain as day that this verse was written about "believers". The whoever or whosoever, does not mean the whole world, as has been stated in other post. It is for those who believe, and we al know that not everyone believes. I think here that ,the "world" spoken of here was not the world as we know it today. John knew of only the world he lived in. And, did Jesus not come for the "world" of Israel. They rejected Him and the message was then taken to the Gentile nations. A whole book could be written on just this one verse trying to explain "whosoever" and "world".

God bless

nobdysfool · Dec 15, 2011

The bottom line is, the non-Calvinists resist any questioning of their love affair with the word "whosoever". The word has achieved almost magical status with them. In their minds, it answers any objection to the free will view, and any objection to the universal atonement view.

In reality, it is just "Olde English" for "anyone who", and the Greek shows that the verse is speaking of those who believe, not those who do not. It carries no indication of ability or even inclination to believe. All the verse says is that anyone who is believing, has everlasting life. God loved the world (in general) in this way: He gave His only Son, so that those believing in Him would certainly have everlasting life. If one is believing, they have it. If they are not believing, they don't have it.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 15, 2011

Epiphoskei said:
I use the UBS 4th Edition Greek, but it doesn't really seem to make a difference which version we use in this particular text.

So why all the hoopla concerning it?

Epiphoskei · Dec 15, 2011

because the translations use antiquated language.

heymikey80 · Dec 16, 2011

spiritwarrior37 said:
It is plain as day that this verse was written about "believers". The whoever or whosoever, does not mean the whole world, as has been stated in other post. It is for those who believe, and we al know that not everyone believes. I think here that ,the "world" spoken of here was not the world as we know it today. John knew of only the world he lived in. And, did Jesus not come for the "world" of Israel. They rejected Him and the message was then taken to the Gentile nations. A whole book could be written on just this one verse trying to explain "whosoever" and "world".

God bless

Yes, in fact, there is a reason why the term "everyone who" would be used in this context: Jesus is pointing out that everyone who believes should not perish. So the term is expansive. But if this meaning were what the non-Calvinists meant by "the whole world" (ie, "everyone in the world"), well, that's just not big enough for everyone, it only includes people who believe.

Salvation's limited.

And Calvinists agree that it's the believers who are saved.

Skala · Dec 16, 2011

Charles Spurgeon said:
What do I mean by this? Ever since the KJV, I believe that John 3:16 has been mistranslated and isn't correct... none of the current Bible have it right either because of everyone comes from an Arminian viewpoint.... the verse, and I kid you not, is Calvinistic to the core, if it is translated correctly...

Joh 3:16 οὕτω γὰρ ἡγάπησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾿ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

For in this way God loved the world, that he gave his only son, in order that all the believing ones in him not destroyed, but shall have life of the ages.

The whole contention really centers on the "whosoever believeth" as in everyone had a "free-choice" in the matter of choosing or rejecting Christ... but if you view the verse by comparing scripture with scripture, and knowing that Christ's redemption actually saved people, not merely made salvation possible then it makes sense.... the verse really is just saying all those believing in Christ are saved... it's not to be understood in the sense that "whosoever" can come, but that all those already believing are saved (because obviously they were chosen...)

Can I get a witness from another Calvinist that knows Greek better than I? I've had four semesters of Greek, but I'm rusty.

I do not know Greek as well as you, but I do know enough that what you say is true.

It's not that John 3:16 is mistranslated, it's that Arminians think the word "whosoever" means something it doesn't mean. It simply means "everyone who fits the description of the group", in this case, believers. "whosoever believes" means "all of the believing ones" - and no one else.

It's not a fault of the translation, it's the fault of tradition and eisegesis and frankly, bad theology.

AMR · Dec 16, 2011

A good read:

A Puritan's Mind » An Exegetical Look at John 3:16 – by Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

billybtennessee · Dec 17, 2011

billybtennessee said:
The verse tells us God loved the world such that His Son would come and die to save those who believe in Him. It is good news. The gospel leaves no one out, the offer is for all, 'whosoever will'. All are invited.

After His resurrection Jesus Christ told His followers to 'go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature'. Mark 16:15.

There is no doubt as to where (all the world), and to who (every creature), the Gospel is for (who), and is to be taken (where).

Mark 16:16, says 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned."

This thread changes nothing, in regards to that. Nor any other one.

That those who believe in Jesus Christ will be the ones saved has not been the issue. The error is in defining "world". God sent His Son to make reconciliation for sin, propitiation for sin. We are all sinners, so that means for all.

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1st John 2:2.

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the Living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe."

Christ died for all. Only those who believe in Him, abide in Him, are saved.

cygnusx1 · Dec 17, 2011

billybtennessee said:
That those who believe in Jesus Christ will be the ones saved has not been the issue. The error is in defining "world". God sent His Son to make reconciliation for sin, propitiation for sin. We are all sinners, so that means for all.

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1st John 2:2.

"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the Living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe."

Christ died for all. Only those who believe in Him, abide in Him, are saved.

fallen angels are sinners so that means all ? of course it doesn't .

heymikey80 · Dec 17, 2011

billybtennessee said:
That those who believe in Jesus Christ will be the ones saved has not been the issue. The error is in defining "world". God sent His Son to make reconciliation for sin, propitiation for sin. We are all sinners, so that means for all.

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1st John 2:2.

"My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1

So does everyone have an advocate with the Father -- Jesus Christ the righteous? Because if Christ Jesus is advocating the same for Christian and non-Christian alike, and to Christ Jesus has been committed the Judgment, then 1 John 2:2 proves too much. Whereas the rest of Scripture states that some people shall not be saved by Christ, this passage would indeed deduce to universal salvation.

That's largely why Calvinists reject this interpretation of 1 John 2:1: it oversells the point.

A point much more in line with Scripture is that Christ is the one appointed for turning aside God's wrath: so that if He does so, then the wrath is indeed turned aside. But if He doesn't -- well, I hope they're wearing asbestos underpants. That's the position of Calvinists for this passage: that Jesus is the sole one with this role, in redemption of the Universe (that is, the "kosmos"). But He's not actually propitiating for each and every person -- nothing's really stated about individual people in this verse.

billybtennessee said:
"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the Living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe."

Christ died for all. Only those who believe in Him, abide in Him, are saved.

I find this specific verse vacuous on universality, and here's why.

The verse doesn't have two conjoined groups it saves. It's not "all men and those who believe" -- it's "all men especially (or, particularly) believing". That one group of believers is not even in question.

Plus, as it's understood in this way, again, it proves too much. If God saves all men, and then particularly saves believers -- well, what's the result? God saves all men. But no, it's not two groups -- it's "all men particularly believers".

We do this all the time -- particularly now. "all" isn't pervasive, it's a modifier of the nouns in the sentence; "particularly" is an additional modifier to items in the sentence, including apparently the phrase "all men". "all ... particularly" should therefore be understood in its common usage of the day: not "each and every one", as that's represented in Greek in another way when the writer/speaker wants to assure us of that situation.

It is my contention that John 3:16 has been forever mistranslated....

Jacob the twister.....

Jacob the twister.....

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

Servant

Defender of the faith from heretical teachers

Servant

Jacob the twister.....

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

The original! Accept no substitutes!

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Senior Veteran

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

Presbyterian (PCA) - Bona Fide Reformed

Newbie

Jacob the twister.....

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency