It Bugs Me to no End

[JoshuaDaryl]

It Bugs me that the call to the service of the Lord is now viewed as a occupation rather than the Calling to Serve that it was meant to be.

oc·cu·pa·tion (ky-pshn)
n.
1.
a. An activity that serves as one's regular source of livelihood; a vocation.

Being called to serve God in full time ministry is not the same as being called to serve God as a member of the congregation, or even a Deacon or Elder, those who have the time to pursue other businesses. Jesus himself depended on such men as Joseph of Arimathea and women like the two Marys to support his ministry, as while he was going about his fathers work Matthew 8:20New King James Version (NKJV)

20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

I drive thru the rural areas of Indiana and see all the shuttered churches, shuttered for no other reason than the inability to find a minister. They can not find a minister because it would be a struggle to offer them $100 per week. We have come into an age where it is expected that ministers must go to these extravagant colleges or seminaries that charge thousands and thousands of dollars. The deans and professors at these schools wear expensive suits, drive expensive cars, and live in fine houses. I cry Pharisee! Gods people are spiritually starving, and we are worried about living like the world

1 Timothy 6:7New King James Version (NKJV)

7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain[a] we can carry nothing out.

I agree, our pastors, missionaries and teachers need training, but why must it be on multi million dollar campuses. Why can we not go back to having apprenticeships , like Paul and Timothy, Jesus and the 12. School is fine, but do the deans and professors have to make 6 figure incomes ? No do not muzzle the ox that treadeth the corn, but could not said dean and professor live on a 5 figure income and drive a Ford, and live in a more modest home ? Could the extra millions not be better spent by 1 training the servants of God at a price where they can afford to let the Holy Spirit Lead them to their place of service, rather than where they can pay their student loans, 2 use extra funds to help send missionaries into the fields to help further the spread of the Gospel. Also, what message does these plush colleges, and wealthy college faculty send our young servants of God ? That it is fine to go, serve God, and earn a nice upper middle class income ? That that is our first priority ? Granted some of Gods people do get called to serve more wealthy christians in nicer churches, and as a result get to live a little higher on the hog, praise the Lord. But then their are those of us called to more lowly people, either urban or rural, but we are blessed just the same, maybe not so much in physical luxuries, but I dare say we see God work with us a lot more intimately, kind of like with Elisha and the oil that never ran out. We always have enough money somehow. But this is what bugs me, we Americans have as a whole become a spoiled people. Is it not amazing how much we shadow Israel ?

 

[tall73]

It Bugs me that the call to the service of the Lord is now viewed as a occupation rather than the Calling to Serve that it was meant to be.

oc·cu·pa·tion (ky-pshn)
n.
1.
a. An activity that serves as one's regular source of livelihood; a vocation.

Being called to serve God in full time ministry is not the same as being called to serve God as a member of the congregation, or even a Deacon or Elder, those who have the time to pursue other businesses. Jesus himself depended on such men as Joseph of Arimathea and women like the two Marys to support his ministry, as while he was going about his fathers work Matthew 8:20New King James Version (NKJV)

20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

I drive thru the rural areas of Indiana and see all the shuttered churches, shuttered for no other reason than the inability to find a minister. They can not find a minister because it would be a struggle to offer them $100 per week. We have come into an age where it is expected that ministers must go to these extravagant colleges or seminaries that charge thousands and thousands of dollars. The deans and professors at these schools wear expensive suits, drive expensive cars, and live in fine houses. I cry Pharisee! Gods people are spiritually starving, and we are worried about living like the world

1 Timothy 6:7New King James Version (NKJV)

7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain[a] we can carry nothing out.

I agree, our pastors, missionaries and teachers need training, but why must it be on multi million dollar campuses. Why can we not go back to having apprenticeships , like Paul and Timothy, Jesus and the 12. School is fine, but do the deans and professors have to make 6 figure incomes ? No do not muzzle the ox that treadeth the corn, but could not said dean and professor live on a 5 figure income and drive a Ford, and live in a more modest home ? Could the extra millions not be better spent by 1 training the servants of God at a price where they can afford to let the Holy Spirit Lead them to their place of service, rather than where they can pay their student loans, 2 use extra funds to help send missionaries into the fields to help further the spread of the Gospel. Also, what message does these plush colleges, and wealthy college faculty send our young servants of God ? That it is fine to go, serve God, and earn a nice upper middle class income ? That that is our first priority ? Granted some of Gods people do get called to serve more wealthy christians in nicer churches, and as a result get to live a little higher on the hog, praise the Lord. But then their are those of us called to more lowly people, either urban or rural, but we are blessed just the same, maybe not so much in physical luxuries, but I dare say we see God work with us a lot more intimately, kind of like with Elisha and the oil that never ran out. We always have enough money somehow. But this is what bugs me, we Americans have as a whole become a spoiled people. Is it not amazing how much we shadow Israel ?

Part of this is due to the congregational structure that Baptists are partial to. Now understand, congregational structure does have many advantages. However, this is one area where it may be a disadvantage.

I was a pastor in the Seventh-day Adventist church for 10 years. I grew up in the church, but eventually found I could not agree with their doctrines, so I left.

One thing, however, that I think they did correctly was their system of paying ministers.

The various churches did not pay their ministers directly. They all sent money up to the central church, which then sent it back down the system to pay ministers, missionaries, etc.

Because of this all ministers were paid nearly the same, with small increases for higher learning degrees, positions of leadership in the conference (heading up a state or multiple states) or for years of service. Each received a decent benefits package.

This way no one lived in a wealthy fashion, and no one starved.

I served in rural district during my first three or so years. I saw the ministers of other denominations struggling, because the churches could not afford to pay them enough to live on. Mind you, not to make it big, but to live on.

This system also had the following advantages:

a. No fights over pastoral salary each year. It was a given and the church didn't decide it.

b. No worrying about our salary if you offended a big donor. You could say what needed to be said with no fear at all of personal financial ramifications. Now that is not to say that ministers should be acting out of fear of financial ramifications. However, this eliminated it altogether.

c. It eliminated some of the desire of pastors to push for a larger, more well to-do church. It freed up those who felt called to minister in poorer areas to do so with immediate funding. It allowed for easier church planting. You could have a salary with no church in the area. It paid for over seas missions, as you suggested in the OP. The USA and some other developed nations have an excess when pooled, which goes to fund the mission elsewhere.

 

[tall73]

A couple of options within the congregational structure:

1. Multi-church districts. I was in a four church district for a time in my first assignment. It keeps you busy, but it is workable. I offered to preach at all of them in a week, but some didn't want to meet at an add time! So I would preach in two each week and the Elders would preach in the other two. And then I would just drive all over during the week!

This is good because it allows a minister to serve churches that might otherwise not be able to afford it. However, it also keeps the local church leadership involved as well. If they have to go for a time without a minister they just keep on rolling.

In the NT churches we see local leadership often leading the church, in addition to the apostles, or missionaries like Paul.


2. Bi-vocational ministers. A minister with a part time job that also does ministry opens up more doors for the minister to witness at the job, and also can help when a church cannot pay the full salary. While Paul said he was entitled to the church's support there were times he refused to take it so that he could be a model of hard work to the churches, preaching and working, and to remove the notion that he was just in it for the profit.

I knew a pastor who did this, working security at the mall part of the time. It was not a really demanding job, which was good, freeing up most of his time for ministry but still giving some extra money.

 

[tall73]

As to the education component, I definitely agree that mentoring would be better than higher education. I will not say the money was wasted, and I did learn some things. However, there is no training like doing, and especially with someone to model it. As it was I had the degree, and some knowledge, and was just put out in the middle of a rural area in the middle of four churches and had to sink or swim. It worked out. Having a mentor would have been better.

If nothing else you could perhaps take distance learning of some of the more technical aspects. With technology today a Greek class online is easy to do.

Working though with an anointed minister who has experience bringing the gospel message, handling church dynamics, and conducting church discipline with an eye toward reclamation is invaluable, compared to book work. And from working with a person you get so much more than just how to do it. You learn about their spiritual life, their struggles, and what it really takes to be a minister.

Now we did still have some older ministers who would visit at times and work with us. These were by necessity fairly spread out. I still learned a lot from them, however.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

2. Bi-vocational ministers. A minister with a part time job that also does ministry opens up more doors for the minister to witness at the job, and also can help when a church cannot pay the full salary. While Paul said he was entitled to the church's support there were times he refused to take it so that he could be a model of hard work to the churches, preaching and working, and to remove the notion that he was just in it for the profit.

I knew a pastor who did this, working security at the mall part of the time. It was not a really demanding job, which was good, freeing up most of his time for ministry but still giving some extra money.

This is what we do in our Mennonite church. The Pastor has a dairy farm, and I my poultry and beef farm. I study under the Pastor, while also acting as an assistant, and I fill in when he is absent.

 

[Bluelion]

I go to one of the school you speak of. While it is true the staff has a bit more money than regular preachers. They are very good teachers. The fact is it is a calling and God lead me this way. I learned more in my first year than all my years in church. I have about 6 years left. Jesus spent 30 years training for a 3 year ministry. I will be in debt for the rest of my life, but what did God say seek the kingdom of heaven first. I think loans should be forgiven for public servants.

I am not looking to be part of a big church i would prefer to stay where I am in a small town and serve. I will go where God sends me.

These schools can be a great place to learn.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

I go to one of the school you speak of. While it is true the staff has a bit more money than regular preachers. They are very good teachers. The fact is it is a calling and God lead me this way. I learned more in my first year than all my years in church. I have about 6 years left. Jesus spent 30 years training for a 3 year ministry. I will be in debt for the rest of my life, but what did God say seek the kingdom of heaven first. I think loans should be forgiven for public servants.

I am not looking to be part of a big church i would prefer to stay where I am in a small town and serve. I will go where God sends me.

These schools can be a great place to learn.

the teaching and curriculum is not in question. You being called by God, and forced by others also called by God to carry a burden of debt the rest of your life, this is the issue. Meanwhile the staff drives fancy new cars and goes home to fine houses, things that wont amount to a hill of beans in eternity. It is easy to tell blu that your fire burns hot, and you would go preach in the deepest darkest jungle to naked natives who have never seen a white man before if God told you to. That is how we all should be, willing to live in a thatched hut eating roasted tarantulas if it be Gods will.

 

[bushinoki]

And this is where I bring up Modern Technology. I know that not all denominations have online courses, but if your denom doesn't constrain you to their schools, online schools are always an option, and there are several good interdenominational universities that offer online curricula. It helps on both ends, as the accelerated programs are geared toward working adults who need to maintain a job, and can therefore minimize student loan debt; and the school doesn't have to spend a small fortune on maintaining an expansive campus. I especially agree with the discipling programs discussed by Joshua and tall. We learn more from working alongside an experienced mentor with our hands in the work.

 

[Bluelion]

the teaching and curriculum is not in question. You being called by God, and forced by others also called by God to carry a burden of debt the rest of your life, this is the issue. Meanwhile the staff drives fancy new cars and goes home to fine houses, things that wont amount to a hill of beans in eternity. It is easy to tell blu that your fire burns hot, and you would go preach in the deepest darkest jungle to naked natives who have never seen a white man before if God told you to. That is how we all should be, willing to live in a thatched hut eating roasted tarantulas if it be Gods will.

thank you for the kind words, but please give credit to God not me. I once had a high paying job and you know a little about my history. I ran from God all my life and would run now But God said no. This Is literally the only kind of work I can do now.

More should be done your right, my school does give a discount to those on the Bible track, if it was not for this discount I would not be able to afford getting my masters, even with loans.

Lets not look at what our brothers or sisters have, we should look at there heart. Its good they have money because some children of God should have it, however, this is not in my cards. I look to Heaven when I will have all I desire, and they will be Godly and perfect.

 

[tall73]

Even in larger churches I see some advantage of training through ministry in the church, rather than through just education.

Churches that develop their own future leadership benefit in a couple of ways.

a. the people who wind up in ministry show aptitude and calling in a real setting, ministering to real people. There are a number of folks who go through ministerial training but never wind up being pastors. When people become ministers from within a ministerial setting it is already clear that they are called and gifted for such by the work God is already doing through them.

b. Those who come up through the ministry and demonstrate ministerial gifting also already know the context in which they are working. They know the people, and how the church is already working within God's plan in the area. That is not to say they can't later move on to other settings, but when they come up in that setting you already know it is a good fit without having to try it on for size.

 

[tall73]

They are very good teachers.

I agree with this. They are good teachers. And one other thing I wondered about as I drove today, if we don't have academic training grounds who will step up to be the Christian scholars who contribute to learning in the church?

Now that is not to say pastors cannot be scholars. However, there may be some who are called to grapple with large questions.

 

[tall73]

One other question that relates to this--is the modern day role of pastor what the original model looked like?

In the early church the apostles devoted their full time to the ministry of the word and to prayer. However, local churches still seemed to have local leadership. And it is not clear they had one go-to leader who worked full time at such.

Missionaries such as Paul went town to town, planting churches when called to do so, building up churches when called to do so.

However, I don't know if a resident professional pastor was something that existed. The churches certainly had elders. I am just not sure they equate to pastors today.

Incidentally in my previous church, in the places where the work was really moving strongly, and many people were coming to Christ one pastor would be over thirty churches! He would go to one church a day, preach, baptize, train, hold a board meeting, then move on to the next church. He functioned as an evangelist and organizer, and the lay members did the day-to-day activities and made connections with their community.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

One other question that relates to this--is the modern day role of pastor what the original model looked like?

In the early church the apostles devoted their full time to the ministry of the word and to prayer. However, local churches still seemed to have local leadership. And it is not clear they had one go-to leader who worked full time at such.

Missionaries such as Paul went town to town, planting churches when called to do so, building up churches when called to do so.

However, I don't know if a resident professional pastor was something that existed. The churches certainly had elders. I am just not sure they equate to pastors today.

Incidentally in my previous church, in the places where the work was really moving strongly, and many people were coming to Christ one pastor would be over thirty churches! He would go to one church a day, preach, baptize, train, hold a board meeting, then move on to the next church. He functioned as an evangelist and organizer, and the lay members did the day-to-day activities and made connections with their community.

I to have thought on this. Also you are correct on the important role of scholars, scribes, and interpreters. These minor roles are very important. Minor only in the sense that a select few are called to this field, not minor in importance. There are many like myself who very much enjoy researching scriptures and history, but I do not possess the gift of understanding languages, or the gift of learning them easily. I have ADHD, so it is really hard to sit still long enough, I would not be able to study as I do without those who have prepared these articles in my native tongue, Praise be to God for these men he has called.

 

[bushinoki]

Joshua, I also have ADHD, but I have the gift of learning new languages, providing the culture itself interests me. Hence, the call to go to Japan. It's one of four languages I've ever been interested enough in to actually throw myself into learning, the other three being Biblical Hebrew, Koine Greek, and Church Latin. I need to start studying these again, when I'm functional enough in Japanese to meet the demands of God's missionary Call on my life. I found it very interesting to understand the application in which certain words were used, and their context.

This leads me to another point, too many of the Bible Schools are too set in their way on how to teach. I applied for Simpson University (Redding, CA, my home town), which they are technically a Yellow Ribbon school, meaning they will close the tuition gap on a select number of veteran students using the Post 9/11 GI Bill, but they are not SOC, meaning that everything that I have done in the military that could possibly equate college credits will be considered toward my degree. Colorado Christian and Azusa Pacific are SOC, so I only need credits directly relating to a Biblical Studies degree at either of these schools. It's about 70 credits I have to make up for at other schools.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

Joshua, I also have ADHD, but I have the gift of learning new languages, providing the culture itself interests me. Hence, the call to go to Japan. It's one of four languages I've ever been interested enough in to actually throw myself into learning, the other three being Biblical Hebrew, Koine Greek, and Church Latin. I need to start studying these again, when I'm functional enough in Japanese to meet the demands of God's missionary Call on my life. I found it very interesting to understand the application in which certain words were used, and their context.

This leads me to another point, too many of the Bible Schools are too set in their way on how to teach. I applied for Simpson University (Redding, CA, my home town), which they are technically a Yellow Ribbon school, meaning they will close the tuition gap on a select number of veteran students using the Post 9/11 GI Bill, but they are not SOC, meaning that everything that I have done in the military that could possibly equate college credits will be considered toward my degree. Colorado Christian and Azusa Pacific are SOC, so I only need credits directly relating to a Biblical Studies degree at either of these schools. It's about 70 credits I have to make up for at other schools.

I agree with you on being interested enough, those who do not understand ADHD question how I can study certain things like Biblical history, or technical agriculture books, its because they interest me enough for me to force myself

 

[Faithfulandtrue]

It Bugs me that the call to the service of the Lord is now viewed as a occupation rather than the Calling to Serve that it was meant to be.

oc·cu·pa·tion (ky-pshn)
n.
1.
a. An activity that serves as one's regular source of livelihood; a vocation.

Being called to serve God in full time ministry is not the same as being called to serve God as a member of the congregation, or even a Deacon or Elder, those who have the time to pursue other businesses. Jesus himself depended on such men as Joseph of Arimathea and women like the two Marys to support his ministry, as while he was going about his fathers work Matthew 8:20New King James Version (NKJV)

20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

I drive thru the rural areas of Indiana and see all the shuttered churches, shuttered for no other reason than the inability to find a minister. They can not find a minister because it would be a struggle to offer them $100 per week. We have come into an age where it is expected that ministers must go to these extravagant colleges or seminaries that charge thousands and thousands of dollars. The deans and professors at these schools wear expensive suits, drive expensive cars, and live in fine houses. I cry Pharisee! Gods people are spiritually starving, and we are worried about living like the world

1 Timothy 6:7New King James Version (NKJV)

7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain[a] we can carry nothing out.

I agree, our pastors, missionaries and teachers need training, but why must it be on multi million dollar campuses. Why can we not go back to having apprenticeships , like Paul and Timothy, Jesus and the 12. School is fine, but do the deans and professors have to make 6 figure incomes ? No do not muzzle the ox that treadeth the corn, but could not said dean and professor live on a 5 figure income and drive a Ford, and live in a more modest home ? Could the extra millions not be better spent by 1 training the servants of God at a price where they can afford to let the Holy Spirit Lead them to their place of service, rather than where they can pay their student loans, 2 use extra funds to help send missionaries into the fields to help further the spread of the Gospel. Also, what message does these plush colleges, and wealthy college faculty send our young servants of God ? That it is fine to go, serve God, and earn a nice upper middle class income ? That that is our first priority ? Granted some of Gods people do get called to serve more wealthy christians in nicer churches, and as a result get to live a little higher on the hog, praise the Lord. But then their are those of us called to more lowly people, either urban or rural, but we are blessed just the same, maybe not so much in physical luxuries, but I dare say we see God work with us a lot more intimately, kind of like with Elisha and the oil that never ran out. We always have enough money somehow. But this is what bugs me, we Americans have as a whole become a spoiled people. Is it not amazing how much we shadow Israel ?

I agree completely. I live were there is a ton of multi-billion dollar so called "churches". it makes me sick and every time I enter some of them big or small ones all I can think of is Jesus flipping tables over and scattering the money and animals.I am blessed to find my church, a southern Baptist church, that meets at a high school. My pastor doesn't take a pay check but is happy to serve the Lord. He says he has his own job outside of church to support his family.

 

[Hentenza]

The expectation of many Baptist congregations today include counseling, activities, programs, schools, and many others things to be offered during the week in addition to just Sundays. The office of pastor, in many Baptist churches today, requires the pastor to be at the church on a daily basis which precludes the pastor from getting income from another source. Secondly, the requirements for pastor have increased dramatically among the baptist community since many want pastors with advance degrees. I don't see anything wrong with pastors that are pursuing their calling from earning a salary to sustain themselves and their families.