Issues in Scienceville.

Hespera · Jun 3, 2011

Inan3 said:
First of all, I would ask it you if you saw this post #308 or read my initial post #1 which started this whole thread? Or did you just jump in from someone elses post to me? Because I would ask you to find out what I am saying. And to answer your question... I have never supposed any specific data is being withheld.

As to your ending statement you prove my point, though. EVEN IF someone DID produce data of the flood or anything else, Sciencevilles attitude is all made up... Reject!! LOL!!! So why should or would anyone TRY to produce it even if they could? That's why we don't see much of it submitted (in Scienceville anyway). Besides who's going to let them pursue their ideas? Their collegues? Their bosses? Nope. Just shut up and keep quiet about that stuff. Forget about it. Scientists are only human after all and they are subject to intimidation and trepidation as much as the next guy. Hmmmm???

So why should or would anyone TRY to produce it even if they could? That's why we don't see much of it submitted (in Scienceville anyway)

you probably have never met a real live researcher so of course uyou would not know why they do things or how they think.

Scientists are a pretty egotistical bunch of individualists for the most part what I personally have seen.

Very competitive, like pro athletes. let them pursue their ideas? Who could stop them?

Why would anyone try to produce data?
Well, that is what researchers do isnt it? Try to produce data?

For the ego, there is the chance for immense fame and a shot at the title of greatest scientist of all time.

No imagined "discrimination" works world wide, self administered at taht, to stop someone!. Certainly not at a conservative christian U! Baylor, i think it is sponsors dinosaur digs in the hopes of finding human footprints.
There is an active example of who's going to let them pursue their ideas!

Im not sure where you get this 'not much of it is submitted". We are unaware of any actual data ever submitted to falsify the ToE or support creationism.

But just suppose that there is a fantasy world or parallel universe where 99% the christian researchers did join with all of the atheists, Taoists, Hindus and so forth all around the world to pick on the creationists.

What about the Christian universities?

There is plenty of room and encouragement for the creationists there surely. Who's going to let them pursue their ideas? Who indeed.

So... why do you suppose nothing comes out of those places either?

AV1611VET · Jun 3, 2011

Nathan Poe said:
It goes all the way back to ancient times, with the people trying to figure out why the volcano explodes vs the people who think they can appease the angry god who lives in it by tossing in a virgin.

I think someone has seen too many Hellyweird movies.

Hespera · Jun 3, 2011

selfinflikted said:
[/color]

Yes, I read the OP, no I didn't read #308. But that has nothing to do with me asking if you think there is specific data being withheld. Also, it sucks that I have to change the color of my reply text because yours is mauve. Ick.

No. I said what I said because there is no data that corroborates the flood, et al, so how could it be withheld? That's why I would've lol'd @ u.

Because it would change everything. If a person came up with that kind of evidence, they would go down in history.

The difference between you and I, however, is that I don't think such evidence has ever, or will ever be presented because it doesn't exist; not because there's a huge conspiracy.

I have no way of knowing if it's really like that in Scienceville or not. But neither do you.

will ever be presented because it doesn't exist; not because there's a huge conspiracy.

its a mighty poor excuse for abject failure to ever produce a single data point.

I have no way of knowing if it's really like that in Scienceville or not. But neither do you

not that we agree there is a "scienceville"...

But going to a conservative christian magazine is not the place to find out about research.

And speaking as someone who grew up with a scientist father, been around his friends and other scientists all my life, and, shucks, i there are probably 20 scientists within a 100 ft circle of where Im sitting!... form my perspective its just invidious nonsense, this conspiracy stuff.

They'd be surprised to find out they were in on it too. Might ask why they didnt get a email. or a card to carry.

As I pointed out to Inan, if i had a story about not being allowed in any churches because Im an atheist, was told to get out, not to dirty their sanctum, i could not expect to be believed.

Why?

She knows the territory.

Same thing with me, seeing a total outsider peering thro' tinted glasses and declaring they know things that they cant possibly know.

And that are not true.

selfinflikted · Jun 3, 2011

Hespera said:
not that we agree there is a "scienceville"...

No we certainly do not.

Inan3 said:
But going to a conservative christian magazine is not the place to find out about research.

Exactly. And having skimmed through the thread, that seems like that's what's going on.

Inan3 said:
And speaking as someone who grew up with a scientist father, been around his friends and other scientists all my life, and, shucks, i there are probably 20 scientists within a 100 ft circle of where Im sitting!... form my perspective its just invidious nonsense, this conspiracy stuff.

Because, if you can't attack the data with anything substantial, then what's one left to do? Attack the people behind the data.

Inan3 · Jun 3, 2011

selfinflikted said:
[/color]

Yes, I read the OP, no I didn't read #308. But that has nothing to do with me asking if you think there is specific data being withheld. Also, it sucks that I have to change the color of my reply text because yours is mauve. Ick.

No. I said what I said because there is no data that corroborates the flood, et al, so how could it be withheld? That's why I would've lol'd @ u.

Because it would change everything. If a person came up with that kind of evidence, they would go down in history.

The difference between you and I, however, is that I don't think such evidence has ever, or will ever be presented because it doesn't exist; not because there's a huge conspiracy.

I have no way of knowing if it's really like that in Scienceville or not. But neither do you.

You know selfinflikted, you seem like a nice guy and all, (better than alot) but I have been on CF for a long time, getting and giving the same answers over and over (right out of the manual yours and mine) so please pardon me if I don't respond. Let's just agree right now that I do NOT see it your way and you don't see it mine. New stuff new conversation. No dis intended.

As to the color, that stays. I've already changed from this to this. Count your blessings.

Inan3 · Jun 3, 2011

AV1611VET said:
It tells us Who did it, how He did it, where He did it, when He did it, why He did it, how long it took Him to do it, what order He did it in, and who the eyewitnesses were.

What more information do you need?

As Danny DiVito said to Arnold Schwarzenegger in Twins, Ahhhbbbbviously!!! Only I really mean EXAAAAACTLY!!

pgp_protector · Jun 3, 2011

Inan3 said:
You know selfinflikted, you seem like a nice guy and all, (better than alot) but I have been on CF for a long time, getting and giving the same answers over and over (right out of the manual yours and mine) so please pardon me if I don't respond. Let's just agree right now that I do NOT see it your way and you don't see it mine. New stuff new conversation. No dis intended.

What Manual (Both please) ?

Inan3 · Jun 3, 2011

Nathan Poe said:
No, you're just trying to hurt an entire field of expertise -- by doing what, exactly?

No, They do that all by themselves, I'm just reporting about it.

No, seriously -- what exactly do you do?

You tell me what YOU do.

This is not about science vs. creationism, nor is it even about science vs. Christianity; it's a far bigger issue than that. It's about reason vs. superstition. One of these things has an indisputable record of improving the human condition; the other does not. Look at the tale of the tape:

It goes all the way back to ancient times, with the people trying to figure out why the volcano explodes vs the people who think they can appease the angry god who lives in it by tossing in a virgin.

It goes back to Gallileo vs. the people who put him under house arrest. Those dang people!

It goes back to Ben Franklin inventing the lightning rod vs. the people condemning him for cheating God out of his punishment for sinners.
Those dang people!

It goes back to the invention of epidural anesthesia vs the people who railed against it because it eliminated God's punishment -- pain during childbirth.
Those dang people!
It even goes back to Charles Darwin vs. the people threatened by the notion that they actually earned their place as the dominant species -- it wasn't handed to them on a platter.
Those dang people!
In short, it's about the people who used their resources to improve the world, vs. the people who demand that the world use its resources to improve them.
Those dang people!
And you guys, the heirs to a legacy of contributing absolutely nothing to the world but the idolization of superstition and an inflated view of your own importance, supposedly granted to you from above, who have not learned a thing from your own history of having to be dragged into the future kicking and screaming...
I mean it those DANG people! I can't take it any more! I won't take it!!

Not.

One.

Thing,

Want to cry and whine at "Scienceville" (I'd fit right in if I did, but no thanks, you do enough for both of us) for not giving you the respect you think you deserve? After the rest of us, those who value reason over superstition, have been giving you guys a free ride -- even as you spit in our faces and do your darnedest to derail the train at every opportunity -- you think you've earned even a modicum of respect? Those dang people!

Don't make me laugh. Seems like your crying to me.

The people of "Scienceville" will still do all the heavy lifting, and you guys will still reap the benefits alongside the rest of us -- be content with that.
Those dang people!

Ha ha. Seems like you're the only one "whining and crying."

So in your honor, to answer the above I will use your own post and add a bunch of smilies which I know the rest of your cronies will gleefully appreciate.

Nathan Poe said:
Well boo hoo -- sorry, there's no place in Scienceville for self-pity. SOOOOO why you filling this page with it???

I think you better take your own advice if you can stop crying long enough.

(Whew... felt good to get that out of my system.) Here's a tissue.

I bet ... what... you were nice for one whole post??? Proud of you.

Hespera · Jun 3, 2011

pgp_protector said:
What Manual (Both please) ?

i dont use one myself but then i dont think one book contains it all

Nathan Poe · Jun 3, 2011

Inan3 said:
No, They do that all by themselves, I'm just reporting about it.

And yet you still want creationists ushered into "Scienceville" and treated as equals. I say their absence isn't discrimination -- it's waste management.

You tell me what YOU do.

I'm a teacher, as a matter of fact -- someone who seeks to eliminate ignorance, as opposed to enshrining it.

Ha ha. Seems like you're the only one "whining and crying."

What can I say -- everyone has a breaking point.

Has it finally gotten through to you that you and the rest of "those dang people" have no place in "Scienceville"? That since you guys bring nothing to the table, you get nothing in return?

So, are "those dang people" really the poor victims of discrimination, or have they just gotten what they have deserved?

Scienceville may not be a utopia, but that doesn't make Creationville any less of a slum.

selfinflikted · Jun 3, 2011

Inan3 said:
You know selfinflikted, you seem like a nice guy and all, (better than alot)

Ha. You should read some old posts of mine from when I first joined. I was a rather angry fellow. I've "chilled" a lot since then. You know, learned the hard way and such.

Inan3 said:
but I have been on CF for a long time, getting and giving the same answers over and over (right out of the manual yours and mine) so please pardon me if I don't respond. Let's just agree right now that I do NOT see it your way and you don't see it mine. New stuff new conversation. No dis intended.

None taken.

Inan3 said:
As to the color, that stays. I've already changed from this to

Inan3 said:
this. Count your blessings.

lol.

Hespera · Jun 3, 2011

Nathan Poe said:
And yet you still want creationists ushered into "Scienceville" and treated as equals. I say their absence isn't discrimination -- it's waste management.

I'm a teacher, as a matter of fact -- someone who seeks to eliminate ignorance, as opposed to enshrining it.

What can I say -- everyone has a breaking point.

Has it finally gotten through to you that you and the rest of "those dang people" have no place in "Scienceville"? That since you guys bring nothing to the table, you get nothing in return?

So, are "those dang people" really the poor victims of discrimination, or have they just gotten what they have deserved?

Scienceville may not be a utopia, but that doesn't make Creationville any less of a slum.

here is a list of schools where they wont be hiring atheists to teach evolution:

Christian Colleges - Universities and Bible Colleges

but where the theocreos should be welcome.

We still wait for inan to say why they never can produce any data in those places. Surely they are not part of the conspiracy to defund and refuse to publish???

selfinflikted · Jun 3, 2011

Hespera said:
We still wait for inan to say why they never can produce any data in those places. Surely they are not part of the conspiracy to defund and refuse to publish???

It's a good question that I think deserves an answer. I'll look forward to a response.

Hespera · Jun 3, 2011

selfinflikted said:
It's a good question that I think deserves an answer. I'll look forward to a response.

Breathe deep and hold

Jro · Jun 3, 2011

Inan3 said:
I agree but when you guys give me things to read or state certain things it's always one sided but you expect me to go with it. What I've been saying all along is there are two sides to this and when you shut out ALL the information you are not getting the whole picture. I believe there definitely is an agenda that keeps data and information at bay and from the public.... you don't.... not anything I can do about that but I am going to give the other side and as far as I am concerned that is enough to keep me from accepting all that you guys just seem believe is the end of truth.

Arguments over one experiment hardly throw all of science into disarray. Kettlewell's experiments remain well supported and well evidenced despite the critiques levied against him- remember, this story is 12 years old. The scientists involved all support evolutionary biology, Jerry Coyne has been a vicious critic of all forms of religion and yet, they were in all likelihood wrong about Kettlewell's moths. You get people like this in science who, despite the majority opinion and majority of data, disagree. Alan Feduccia is another good example, off the top of my head. Very good biologist, disagrees with the prevailing notion that dinosaurs evolved into birds, and will defend that to the death. Universally considered very, very wrong at this point.

Yes, getting things published, ESPECIALLY controversial things is difficult. That's just par for course. If you don't have the necessary context to understand what the disagreement is over, you very well may think that these arguments throw everything into question... but they don't. Read the papers, go to the primary literature. Otherwise you're just crying 'HELP HELP THE SCIENTISTS ARE OPPRESSING PEOPLE' without any real evidence. Data is not kept at bay- it's pretty accessible if you look.

Amazon.com: Used and New: Evolutionary Biology

Here is a first edition of the book I was discussing on evolution. It is $2.74 plus shipping. It has the data in it and it offers citations to look up the primary literature that it uses to support it. I can vouch for Futuyma, he's a very good researcher and a very good writer, a rare combination.

selfinflikted · Jun 3, 2011

Hespera said:
Breathe deep and hold

:O

Why you hate me?!?

sandwiches · Jun 3, 2011

pgp_protector said:
What Manual (Both please) ?

I think our manual is the one with the one with the baby-eating and the Global Scientific Conspiracy membership requirements.

selfinflikted · Jun 3, 2011

sandwiches said:
I think our manual is the one with the one with the baby-eating and the Global Scientific Conspiracy membership requirements.

I was having trouble deciding what to cook for supper tonight until I read this post. Thanks dude.

(emphasis mine)

Nabobalis · Jun 3, 2011

selfinflikted said:
I was having trouble deciding what to cook for supper tonight until I read this post. Thanks dude.

(emphasis mine)

Make sure you marinate for at least 2 hours.

sandwiches · Jun 3, 2011

Nabobalis said:
Make sure you marinate for at least 2 hours.

I like using Worcestershire sauce or even steak rub for extra seasoning.

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