Israel

Hug · Apr 3, 2013

Hi
can we Gentiles say that we form part of Israel by grace or can we say we are spiritual Israel?

God bless

Biblewriter · Apr 3, 2013

Hug said:
Hi
can we Gentiles say that we form part of Israel by grace or can we say we are spiritual Israel?

God bless

What scriptures do you base these ideas upon?

dfw69 · Apr 3, 2013

Israel is Israel ... Sons of Abraham Isaac and Jacob ... The 12 tribes of Jacob (Israel)

Spiritual Israel is Jews and Gentiles in Christ

The future temple is a messianic age temple built in Israel ... 2 temples are yet to come... The first is built by a false messiah or a false prophet... the last is built by Jesus

The spiritual temple is Jews and Gentiles in Christ

I think the temple represents god with man..or gods house and god rule over man... In the millennium of Christ .. The temple built symbolized the future house that will come down from heaven after the 1000 years... For god the father will also come down and live among men

hiscosmicgoldfish · Apr 3, 2013

Hug said:
Hi
can we Gentiles say that we form part of Israel by grace or can we say we are spiritual Israel?

God bless

dunno.

ebedmelech · Apr 3, 2013

Hug said:
Hi
can we Gentiles say that we form part of Israel by grace or can we say we are spiritual Israel?

God bless

Romans 11 says Gentiles and Jews are "one olive tree"! Indeed we are spiritual Israel.

Jesus became a fulfillment of Israel when He went into the wilderness forty days. Each day represented one of each of the forty years God tested Israel in the wilderness...on;y Jesus passed the temptation and therefore we enter the Promised Land through Him.

Tremendous!!!

ViaCrucis · Apr 3, 2013

Hug said:
Hi
can we Gentiles say that we form part of Israel by grace or can we say we are spiritual Israel?

God bless

Yes. In Christ God is bringing together all people together into the Household of God. What God began in Abraham through Jacob and for which God formed a nation to be His own and sent all the Prophets was for the coming of the Christ, Jesus our Lord.

Thus, in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile. There is only the One New Man, our Lord Jesus Christ; and in Him we are one.

St. Peter says this:

"As you come to Him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in Him will not be put to shame.' So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, 'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.' and 'A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.' They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." - 1 Peter 2:4-10

God has made one where there was once many. A holy people, a redeemed people. His Holy Church built upon the Prophets and the Apostles and knit together in Christ through the Spirit under the universal Fatherhood of Almighty God.

-CryptoLutheran

dana b · Apr 3, 2013

No, the Old Testament Covenant was finished when Jesus took over. Those who followed Jesus are the "regeneration" of Isreal. Israel's Messiah was Jesus Christ. Therefore those who followed Jesus and became Christias are following the Messiah of Israel. So they are now Israel. Jesus said to the Old Covenant Israel that "from you will be taken the kingdom and given to other more worthy."

So Old Covenant Israel has been abandoned and now Jesus's followers are the real Israel. Because they made the right choice and followed the Messiah who was sent to gather them. And he did indeed gather them, who did he gather? Nationaly he gathered the Christian nations. These were the European Gentiles. So because they followed and stuck with him, they are Israel.

No, it's not both groups, it's the Jesus followers. Because he was sent to gather and who did he end up gathering. It's all fine and clear for those who don't try to turn it somehow.

dana b · Apr 3, 2013

ebedmelech said:
Romans 11 says Gentiles and Jews are "one olive tree"! Indeed we are spiritual Israel.

Jesus became a fulfillment of Israel when He went into the wilderness forty days. Each day represented one of each of the forty years God tested Israel in the wilderness...on;y Jesus passed the temptation and therefore we enter the Promised Land through Him.

Tremendous!!!

Rm.11;17 doesn't say that the Jews and Gentiles are all one olive tree. It says that the jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah of Israel and so were thereby "broken off the tree." Then it says that new "wild Gentile branches" were grafted on to fuflill their place.

Then it says "if the old original branches would come and accept Jesus as the Messiah of Israel" then they could be grafted back on again. But they have to come around and change their religion from being Moses's Old Testament followers into Jesus New Testament followers.

So Israel today does not consist of two different groups. It consists of only those who follow Jesus Christ. Others are no longer Israel. They were, but they were blinded and wouldn't accept the Messiah. So they are not part of Israel anymore. But they can join and follow Jesus if they want. Paul wished that they would. But have most of them today?

Hug · Apr 4, 2013

Thnks to all of u...

God bless

Tractor1 · Apr 4, 2013

Hug said:
Hi
can we Gentiles say that we form part of Israel by grace or can we say we are spiritual Israel?

God bless

Neither.

In Christ,
Tracey

Biblewriter · Apr 4, 2013

Romans 11 does not say. or even imply, that the olive tree represents Israel. It says that Israel was branches on the Olive tree. And it says, as Dana has observed, that believing gentiles were grafted into the tree.

But in saying that Israel will be grafted back into the tree is they abide not still in unbelief, it was not only speaking of Jews who believe during this age, for the Old Testament scriptures explicitly say that in a coming day all Israel will finally repent. See, for instance, Zechariah 12:11-14. and Ezekiel 36:10. These are only two places among many that say this.

skypair · Apr 4, 2013

Hug said:
Hi
can we Gentiles say that we form part of Israel by grace or can we say we are spiritual Israel?

We are "spiritual Israel" .. the vine. We find in this vine that the OT branches weren't producing fruit and were cut out .. those that were not producing much fruit were picked up and washed off and set back in the vine (Jewish converts to Christ) .. and then there were the branches that brought forth much fruit, mostly the Gentiles.

As far as the olive tree is concerned, we are "filling in" until the natural branches are grafted back in. That is, for this time we have worship privileges with God. Our observances and beliefs are quite different than Judaism. However, in the tribulation and the Millennial Kingdom of Christ, the OT practices will be reinstated whilest the church will be in New Jerusalem above.

skypair

dana b · Apr 4, 2013

skypair said:
We are "spiritual Israel" .. the vine. We find in this vine that the OT branches weren't producing fruit and were cut out .. those that were not producing much fruit were picked up and washed off and set back in the vine (Jewish converts to Christ) .. and then there were the branches that brought forth much fruit, mostly the Gentiles.

As far as the olive tree is concerned, we are "filling in" until the natural branches are grafted back in. That is, for this time we have worship privileges with God. Our observances and beliefs are quite different than Judaism. However, in the tribulation and the Millennial Kingdom of Christ, the OT practices will be reinstated whilest the church will be in New Jerusalem above.

skypair

It says;

"And they also,(Old Testament Israel) if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." Rm.11;23

This verse is clear. It indicates that "if" the Old Testament Israel begins believing and following Jesus Christ as the Messiah, that they "can be" re-grafted back on. It does not say here that "they will do this." It says "if they do" then they can come back. This verse in ambiguous. And Paul knows, more than most of the others, what is going on.

So even if some people want to interpret Old Testament verses to show that "all of Israel will be saved," they cannot go agains Pauls Rm.11;23 It says "if."

So when it says all of "Israel will be saved," it means all who follow the Messiah of Israel will be saved.Rm.11;26 And Paul's Messiah of Israel is Jesus Christ.

__________________________________________________________

Yes, the Olive tree in this case, is Israel. It says so in this verse of Pauls.

"For thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graft onto their own olive tree?" Rm.11;24

dana b · Apr 4, 2013

Biblewriter said:
Romans 11 does not say. or even imply, that the olive tree represents Israel. It says that Israel was branches on the Olive tree. And it says, as Dana has observed, that believing gentiles were grafted into the tree.

But in saying that Israel will be grafted back into the tree is they abide not still in unbelief, it was not only speaking of Jews who believe during this age, for the Old Testament scriptures explicitly say that in a coming day all Israel will finally repent. See, for instance, Zechariah 12:11-14. and Ezekiel 36:10. These are only two places among many that say this.

"In that day shall there be great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Had-ad-rim-mon in the vally of Meg-gid-on.
"And the land shall mourn every family apart, the family of the house of David apart(tribe of Judah)..................
"The family of the house of Levi apart.................
"All families that remain, every family apart..................

In these above verses it only shows the trbe of Judah and Levi to be "all families that remain."

These verses do not indicate that "all Israel will be saved."

________________________________________________________

And in Eze.36;10;

"And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Isreal, even all of it, the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded."

This verse was written by Ezekiel during the time of the 70 year Babylonian captivity. This above prophesy is describing the end of the 70 year exile and how they shall return to Jerusalem and re-build. It already happened in 520BC. This verse is not primarily about the end time and Christian millennium. (although the typology of both the return from Babylonian exile, and the return to God for the Christian millennium are the same.

But the verse of Eze.36;10 is a forecast of the rebuilding after the Babylonian exile which has now already occured.

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