ISRAEL, History in a nutshell

Ivy · Aug 3, 2006

gwynedd1 said:
Matt 5
43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Since you believe that the Jewish people are your enemy, you need to apply this Scripture to yourself and your attitude towards your "enemies."

gwynedd1 · Aug 3, 2006

Ivy said:
Since you believe that the Jewish people are your enemy, you need to apply this Scripture to yourself and your attitude towards your "enemies."

I agree. Also, I like your truely Hebrew/Jewish symbol.

Exodus
29: And thou shalt make the dishes thereof, and spoons thereof, and covers thereof, and bowls thereof, to cover withal: of pure gold shalt thou make them.
30: And thou shalt set upon the table shewbread before me always.
31: And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.
32: And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side:
33: Three bowls made like unto almonds, with a knop and a flower in one branch; and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch, with a knop and a flower: so in the six branches that come out of the candlestick.

Wags · Aug 3, 2006

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hmm, what about Israel? You don't think God is still angry about His Son being "crucified"?

Whoa - you don't really believe that do you?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]John 10:17[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]-18 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] .[/FONT]

Mark 10:45 For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]

gwynedd1 · Aug 3, 2006

Wags said:
Whoa - you don't really believe that do you?

It is not anger of God that is the issue so I agree on that point. It is the rejection on the part of Israel. They rejected him. He is waiting. However for the time being it is a wicked generation. We were the same until we were justified by Jesus Christ.

Matt 23
37: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38: Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39: For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Ivy · Aug 4, 2006

gwynedd1 said:
I agree. Also, I like your truely Hebrew/Jewish symbol.

Thank you; someone gave it to me as a gift yesterday and I think it is very nice.

I think that anyone, whether Jew or Gentile, has a much harder time in life without Yeshua/Jesus. I think he is waiting eagerly to extend comfort and peace to all the people of Israel.

But Israel's original resistance to their own Messiah has been compounded a hundredfold by the "lovely" activities of the church toward them the last 2000 years. We need to repent for alienating the Jewish people from their own Messiah; we are by far the worst culprits.

IMHO many Jewish people really just don't want to be Christian churchies; they want to remain ethnically and culturally Jewish; they don't want to be mercilessly punished by Gentiles for being ethnically & culturally Jewish--Yeshua never prohibited them from being that, and neither should we.

If we stop beating up on them for a change, maybe they will stop thinking of Jesus as the God of the Beater-Uppers.

Driver · Aug 4, 2006

Ivy said:
If we stop beating up on them for a change, maybe they will stop thinking of Jesus as the God of the Beater-Uppers.

Isn't encouraging them to settle in Palestine (Christian Zionism) more of the same "beating up" on them by Christians? Haven't they come to look on it as taking advantage of them? Why are we trying to segregate them? Doesn't this lead to all kinds of problems?

Here is the way one Jewish writer has put it:

Whatever you do, do not invite the Christian Zionist into your house. Because as much as he claims to love you and all of your fellow tribesmen, it's a different kind of love than you might expect. More like the love that the Manson Family had for Sharon Tate and her party guests.

The Evangelicals' late-20th-century strategy of embracing Jews as their biggest, bestest friends in the whole wide world reads like an updated Hansel and Gretel, with Evans playing the witch luring Hymie and Gilah into his West Bank lair in order to cook them.

When I pointed out to a Jewish cousin of mine the insanity of this "alliance"—in which the Christian Zionists are using Jews in order to help God massacre them—he laughed. "I know, they're a bunch of freaks and weirdoes."

Then he added: "But we're just using them."

I wonder. Who's using whom? The Evangelicals must be saying to each other, "Can you believe these Jewish lunatics? They're actually working with us to bring about their own annihilation! They think what they're getting is increased aid and support for Israel, when really we're just using them to bring Jesus back. Those poor fools…"

In fact the entire pro-Israel Jewish-Evangelical alliance comes down to not talking about "It"—the Apocalypse—or about how they're both using each other and both consider the other equally insane.

http://www.nypress.com/17/41/news&columns/feature.cfm

Isn't it better to encourage them to join the rest of us and become one body of believers in Christ? Isn't Christian Zionism based on bad theology?

http://www.icdc.com/~dnice/disp.html

BarbB · Aug 4, 2006

Driver said:
....
Isn't it better to encourage them to join the rest of us and become one body of believers in Christ? Isn't Christian Zionism based on bad theology?

http://www.icdc.com/~dnice/disp.html

Why on God's green earth would the Jews want to join with the Christians who have oppressed and murdered them for 2000 years? Honestly, if one had the sensitivity of a rhino, one could see how offensive Christianity is to the Jews.

And, please believe me, Jews are becoming believers daily. Messianic congregations are growing not only because of Gentiles like me who love Christianity's Jewish roots, but because of Jews who are born-again into a belief and new life in Yeshua/Jesus! Jesus is not the offense to the Jews; Christianity is!

FlatpickingJD · Aug 4, 2006

Poke said:
. . . Jews have always plotted against Christians. You see it in their Talmud where Jews are instructed to plot against Christians.

Can you point to anywhere in the Talmud where it says that? I've read the Talmud, and I never saw anywhere where it told Jews to "plot against Christians." If anything, the Talmud teaches understanding and charity. This is more of the same garbage piled onto Jews for centuries 'see, look at their books, they want to destroy us, we must kill them, the heathens.' And Jesus is only mentioned once -one time- in the Talmud, and that in a footnote, as Yeshua ben Joseph.

You see it when Jewish bankers were charging usury to Christians but fair rates to Jews. . .

More calumny heaped upon Jews for centuries. This kind of thing really needs to stop. The lending practices complained of were actually required by the church. Jews were forbidden to engage in any trades or profession but those of merchant and money lender. Christians were forbidden from lending money, so the Church needed somebody to loan money and "chose" the Jews to do it. The interest rates charged were fair, and in order for a Jew to lend to a Christian, the transaction had to be approved by the Church leaders in the area. And whenever the Jew doing the lending became too rich, recalling again that Christians were forbidden from lending money, the Church was threatened and would typically strip the money from the lender.

Poke · Aug 4, 2006

FlatpickingJD said:
Can you point to anywhere in the Talmud where it says that? I've read the Talmud, and I never saw anywhere where it told Jews to "plot against Christians."

That phrase isn't used. But, the aggregate of verses condoning plotting and crimes against non-jews amounts to instructions to plot against Christians.

For example, this verse which instructs that Jews should not be punished for plotting against and murdering non-jews: "A Jew who killed a righteous gentile is not executed in a court of law. It says in Exodus 21:14, 'If a man schemes against his fellow man and kills the man deliberately, take him away from the altar and put him to death.' But a gentile is not considered a man, and even more so, a Jew is not executed for killing an unrighteous gentile." Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Rotze'ach 2:11

If anything, the Talmud teaches understanding and charity.

To other jews.

More calumny heaped upon Jews for centuries. This kind of thing really needs to stop. The lending practices complained of were actually required by the church.

So, it has nothing to do with Judaism allowing usury to be charged only against non-jews?

Treppers · Aug 4, 2006

History in a nutshell? I have never watched so much rubbish in my life, I got to the third slide about how Arab leaders induced the flight of the Arabs and went no further.

What's hilarious about this 'history lesson' is that not a single source is cited to back up any of the claims. I can't check a single thing the creator of Nutshell claims, I only have his word for it. On this basis I completed ignored what he said.

Also noticeable by its absence is any quote by Israel's leading historian on the subject on the birth of the refugee problem, Benny Morris.

Perhaps those who don't just accept the first thing they read without citation on some random website would be interested to read about what Israel's leading historian has documented:

"In general, in most cases the final and decisive precipitant to flight was Haganah, IZL, LHI or IDF attack or the inhabitants' fear of such attack." In his updated study of his study on Palestinian refugees, Morris documented "20-odd cases of massacre" by Zionist forces during the war, random killings of Palestinians and "several dozen cases of rape, a crime viewed with particular horror in Arab and Muslim countries."

As I said, look at the Israeli scholarship, it's much more serious, certainly more serious than the cacophony which is Nutshell.

Poke · Aug 4, 2006

Ivy said:
And another thing. When Jesus died on the cross, he asked his Father that all those who had participated in his death be forgiven. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." Remember?

It says in the Scripture that Jesus receives whatever he asks from the Father, and I'm sure none of us want to stand in the way of that, do we?

God did not forgive the Jews, and Jesus knew it. By Jesus' own words, God punished the Jews by having Judea destroyed.

Speaking of the crucifixion, Jesus prayed, "may this cup be taken from me" yet, he was crucified, anyway.

Where does thee Bible say that Jesus got whatever he asks? Jesus prayed that the Father's will be done, not his.

Treppers · Aug 4, 2006

I'm not a fan of videos, so I'll probably skip watching it and so can't comment on it. If, like me, you're more of a reader, do have a look at this study of Orthodox Islam by the late Jewish-Israeli Professor Emeritus of Chemistry Israel Shahak. I believe he spent the latter part of his career, up to his death, at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Do at least check out the first few lines of chapter 5.

Here's a British organisation called Jews For Justice For Palestinians which I am aware of and have been involved with indirectly (they were one of the organisations involved at a protest I went to in London recently about the Lebanon bombing):

WHO ARE WE?

Jews for Justice for Palestinians is a network of Jews who are British or live in Britain, practising and secular, Zionist and not. We oppose Israeli policies that undermine the livelihoods, human, civil and political rights of the Palestinian people.

We support the right of Israelis to live in freedom and security within Israel's 1967 borders.

As well as organising to ensure that Jewish opinions critical of Israeli policy are heard in Britain, we extend support to Palestinians trapped in the spiral of violence and repression. We believe that such actions are important in countering antisemitism and the claim that opposition to Israel’s destructive policies is itself antisemitic [emphasis added].

We cooperate with other organisations on specific issues without necessarily endorsing everything they do.

We work to build world-wide Jewish opposition to the Israeli Occupation, with like-minded groups around the world and are a founding member of European Jews for a Just Peace, a federation of Jewish groups in ten European countries whose principles include:

condemnation of all violence against civilians in the conflict, no matter by whom it is carried out.
recognition of Israel's 1967 'green line' borders;
commitment to the Palestinians' right to a state in the territories currently occupied by Israel in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza;
calling on Israel to acknowledge its part in the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem and its obligation to negotiate a just, fair and practical resolution of the issue.

Driver · Aug 4, 2006

BarbB said:
Why on God's green earth would the Jews want to join with the Christians who have oppressed and murdered them for 2000 years? Honestly, if one had the sensitivity of a rhino, one could see how offensive Christianity is to the Jews.

And, please believe me, Jews are becoming believers daily. Messianic congregations are growing not only because of Gentiles like me who love Christianity's Jewish roots, but because of Jews who are born-again into a belief and new life in Yeshua/Jesus! Jesus is not the offense to the Jews; Christianity is!

But, isn't Christian Zionism "more of the same" oppression and persecution? Are these persecutions from the same "pretended powers" that have plagued Christian believers over these past 2000 years?

Such persecutions helped ignite the Reformation in Europe, and moved us even closer to Christ and the Christianity of the Bible.

Easystreet · Aug 4, 2006

Treppers said:
I'm not a fan of videos, so I'll probably skip watching it and so can't comment on it. If, like me, you're more of a reader, do have a look at this study of Orthodox Islam by the late Jewish-Israeli Professor Emeritus of Chemistry Israel Shahak. I believe he spent the latter part of his career, up to his death, at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem.

Do at least check out the first few lines of chapter 5.

Here's a British organisation called Jews For Justice For Palestinians which I am aware of and have been involved with indirectly (they were one of the organisations involved at a protest I went to in London recently about the Lebanon bombing):

WHO ARE WE?

Jews for Justice for Palestinians is a network of Jews who are British or live in Britain, practising and secular, Zionist and not. We oppose Israeli policies that undermine the livelihoods, human, civil and political rights of the Palestinian people.

We support the right of Israelis to live in freedom and security within Israel's 1967 borders.

As well as organising to ensure that Jewish opinions critical of Israeli policy are heard in Britain, we extend support to Palestinians trapped in the spiral of violence and repression. We believe that such actions are important in countering antisemitism and the claim that opposition to Israel’s destructive policies is itself antisemitic [emphasis added].

We cooperate with other organisations on specific issues without necessarily endorsing everything they do.

We work to build world-wide Jewish opposition to the Israeli Occupation, with like-minded groups around the world and are a founding member of European Jews for a Just Peace, a federation of Jewish groups in ten European countries whose principles include:

condemnation of all violence against civilians in the conflict, no matter by whom it is carried out.

recognition of Israel's 1967 'green line' borders;

commitment to the Palestinians' right to a state in the territories currently occupied by Israel in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza;

calling on Israel to acknowledge its part in the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem and its obligation to negotiate a just, fair and practical resolution of the issue.

Your first and third are fine, but your last is incorrect. Israel did not create the Palestinian refugee problem.

If you don't want to take time to view the history as in the first post why even bother.

The historical facts stand against any position that Israel created a Palestinian refugee problem.

The Islamic nations have created it and the facts are the facts.

FlatpickingJD · Aug 4, 2006

Poke said:
That phrase isn't used. But, the aggregate of verses condoning plotting and crimes against non-jews amounts to instructions to plot against Christians.

For example, this verse which instructs that Jews should not be punished for plotting against and murdering non-jews: "A Jew who killed a righteous gentile is not executed in a court of law. It says in Exodus 21:14, 'If a man schemes against his fellow man and kills the man deliberately, take him away from the altar and put him to death.' But a gentile is not considered a man, and even more so, a Jew is not executed for killing an unrighteous gentile." Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Rotze'ach 2:1

This is a typical argument of Jew haters, Jew baiters, and anti-Semites the world over. First and foremost, the Mishneh Torah is not the Talmud, it is Maimonides' interpretation of the first 10 books of the bible. Second, consider where Moses ben Maimon was when he wrote the Mishneh Torah: Egypt. He was under the patronage and protection of the leader of the Muslim world, in a Muslim country, and would not say or do anything to jeopardize that patronage. Third, consider also that Rambam and his family fled Spain due to the persecution of Jews by the Church in Spain, so he might have been a little biased against Christianity in general (the old 'convert or die' choice). All that said, you've taken the quote out of context, as Maimonides was explaining ancient or traditional Judaic law, not the law of Jews as of his writing.

To other jews.

No, really, the Talmud being the oral tradition of Judaism does not show only mercy and compassion towards other Jews alone, but towards people of all races, creeds, religions, etc. Jews are called upon to act in the tradition of mercy and justice towards all, not just towards other Jews and the Talmud clearly reflects that call.

So, it has nothing to do with Judaism allowing usury to be charged only against non-jews?

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word "usury" first came up in the very early part of the 14th Century (1303 to be precise) and was defined to mean nothing more than lending money at interest, which was forbidden by Church teachings and doctrine. The church had need of money lenders so, as I said before, they "allowed" and "chose" Jews to do the lending, presumably b/c they could control Jews better than Muslims. It was not for another 3 centuries or thereabouts that the word "usury" came to mean what it currently does today, that is, lending money at an exhorbitant interest rate. The meaning changed b/c Jews became quite successful at the business of lending money and the Church couldn't have that so they banned usury. Again, that said, Jews loaned money to Jew and non-Jew alike at the same interest rate. Judaism no more allows usurious rates (contemporarily defined) against Christian than it does Jew; Jews are taught to be fair in their dealings with all people, believer and non-believer.

I will now leave this thread b/c it has become nothing more than a place for people to spew hate and anger against a people who are no more deserving of it than you or I.

I bid you peace.

Poke · Aug 4, 2006

Wags said:
John 10:17-18 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father."

Because of this, you don't think God is "angry" at Jews for killing Jesus? Why was Judas accused of betraying Jesus? Why was Judas said to be lost? Why did Jesus say it would have been good of Judas has never been born? Why would things be so bad for Judas if it's all Jesus? That Jesus let Judas do this doesn't let Judas off the hook.

Indeed, God is angry at the Jews for killing Jesus. That is the point of Luke 21:22, and this is where Satan and Zionists are trying to undo God's punishment.

gwynedd1 · Aug 4, 2006

BarbB said:
Why on God's green earth would the Jews want to join with the Christians who have oppressed and murdered them for 2000 years? Honestly, if one had the sensitivity of a rhino, one could see how offensive Christianity is to the Jews.

And, please believe me, Jews are becoming believers daily. Messianic congregations are growing not only because of Gentiles like me who love Christianity's Jewish roots, but because of Jews who are born-again into a belief and new life in Yeshua/Jesus! Jesus is not the offense to the Jews; Christianity is!

At face value it has been quite mixed. To begin the early Christains were severly persecuted by the Jews of that day. So first blood was Christian. Now as to the rest their are those that call themselves Christian and those that call themselves Jewish. This is essentialy a culture that one springs from. Now the Bolsheviks were heavily represented at the top by so called "atheist Jews". We also have the fun loving Frankists that are a scourge to all. So unique victim status of cultural "Jews" is false. This mythology also allows some very brutal activity behind this viel and even to those who persecute other Jews which is a sad irony that you have choosen to perpetuate.

Friendlyneighbor101 · Aug 7, 2006

If anyone deserves it I believe its Israel , i mean how many countries have tried to wipe them out over the years... Come on I mean they deserve a shot to exist all they want is to live in peace.

Are we not the land of the Free?
Land of oppertunity?

stumpjumper · Aug 8, 2006

Thread cleaned and closed permanently.

Please take note of forum rules for future discussions:

2.1 No Flaming

You will not "flame" other members or groups of members. Flaming includes, but is not limited to:
- Ridiculing, insulting, or demeaning another member, group of members;
- Ridiculing another members 's beliefs;
- Ridiculing public figures important to another's beliefs;
- Stating or implying that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian;
- Using sarcasm to attempt any of the above; and
- Threats of any sort.

ISRAEL, History in a nutshell

Pray for President Barack Obama

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Pray for President Barack Obama

Driver

Guest

I stand with my brothers and sisters in Israel!

Losing the battle with oxalis

Poke

Guest

Well-Known Member

Poke

Guest

Well-Known Member

Driver

Guest

Well-Known Member

Losing the battle with oxalis

Poke

Guest

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Left the river, made it to the sea

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency