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Islam doesn't condone terror

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Rationalt

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The Idea that religion should not be forced on others has very little support in Quran with the exception of some stray verses like 109:6 and 18:29 (which are, Btw, meccan verses.)

Islam wants to dominate the world, says Quran.

3.056 As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers.

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.
 
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Servant of Jesus

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Still waiting for someone to explain all these verses- all directly from the Qu'ran, all supporting some pretty questionable behaviour. If I have taken any of them out of context, please don't hesitate to make additions or corrections.

When you're done, I have a few hundred more to offer.
 
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IbrahimFahim

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What's to explain. You cut and pasted from an anti-Islamic website. Why do you think anything like that should be dignified with a response?

I actually addressed the phenomenon here.
 
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Servant of Jesus

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IbrahimFahim said:
What's to explain. You cut and pasted from an anti-Islamic website. Why do you think anything like that should be dignified with a response?

I actually addressed the phenomenon here.
Click to expand...

Those are quotes direct from an English translation of the Qu'ran. It is irrelevant where else they were posted- I am sure many sites present them to allow readers to make their own assessment of Islam.
 
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Servant of Jesus

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IbrahimFahim said:
What's to explain. You cut and pasted from an anti-Islamic website. Why do you think anything like that should be dignified with a response?

I actually addressed the phenomenon here.
Click to expand...

I wish you'd stop making excuses and just explain the verses.

But it's not just the verses that trouble me- it's the almost daily reports of barbarism that seem to support the premise that Islam is a violent, inhumane religion. Take this report, for example, that appeared today.

Iran Hanging One Person Every 12 Hours

The Teheran regime has hanged 66 individuals since the end of 2010, according to France 24 International News.

Among them was a 46-year-old Iranian-born, Dutch national Sahra Bahrami, who was hung on January 29 on drug-smuggling charges.

Holland’s Foreign Ministry said it was “shocked, shattered by this act by a barbaric regime,” according to Agence France Presse.

Bahrami’s sister dismissed the Iranian charges, which she contended were fabricated.

“She doesn’t even smoke cigarettes, let alone possessing drugs. How could someone who participates in election gatherings and endangers her life, engage in such actions against her country?” she is quoted as telling the International Campaign for Human Rights in Iran.

“I am bewildered as to how my client’s death sentence was issued while her security charges had not yet been reviewed,” Bahrami’s attorney said after her death.

The Hague froze relations with Iran in the wake of the killing.

Iranian officials arrested Bahrami during anti-government protests in 2009, and held her on “security charges.” She had been visiting Iran to see her relatives.

Catherine Ashton, The European Union’s representative in talks with Iran over their nuclear program, said “Executions are taking place at an alarming rate.”

Ashton made her remarks in reference to the hanging of 10 alleged drug traffickers, only two days prior to Bahrami’s killing.

Radio Netherlands Worldwide (RNW) said on Sunday that they would begin posting news bulletins in Farsi in the wake of Bahrami’s death.

Iran’s Mashrek news agency on Saturday said the launch was part of “an international media campaign against Iran,” a charge that RNW Editor-in-Chief Rik Rensen strongly denied, calling it “baseless.”

Rensen said the network was “independent and works according to internationally accepted standards of journalism.”

The Farsi site, which RNW said also publishes the daily briefs and news reports on Twitter and Facebook, will run for a month-long test, according to Rensen, “at the end of which we’ll decide whether it should be continued.”

With Iran hanging its citizens for murder; armed robbery; rape; blasphemy; apostasy; adultery; prostitution; homosexuality; drug-related offences – oh, and plotting to overthrow the Islamic regime – it’s no wonder the crane operators are so busy.

Iran uses an appallingly crude and inhuman method of hanging. Unlike the ‘long drop’ method, which – correctly carried out – swiftly fractures the neck causing instantaneous death; the vicitim is instead suspended at altitude from a crane or scaffold until they asphyxiate – a demise which can prove long and agonising).

It amounts to little other than strangulation at height; and is invariably accompanied by – what else? – an assembled throng screaming ‘Allahu Akbar!’.
---------------------------------

And remember, this is happening under the reign of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and so must be supported by his top Islamic Imam and the Supreme Religious Leader of Iran, Ali Khamenei. It seems to me that the two of them are only practicing what they preach, and nicely following the example of Muhammed (pbuh).
 
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Rationalt

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wpage said:
The Qu'ran clearly is not a book of peace.

It is clear that Islam is not the religion of Peace.

Pray for peace since the same God of Abram represents both belief systems of Christianity Islam and Jews for that matter.
Click to expand...

Pray to whom?.The G-d Of Abram?.The same G-d Of "old testament"?.
 
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Servant of Jesus

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Catherine Ashton, The European Union’s representative in talks with Iran over their nuclear program, said “Executions are taking place at an alarming rate.”

Ashton made her remarks in reference to the hanging of 10 alleged drug traffickers, only two days prior to Bahrami’s killing.


I'd also like someone to explain to me why in Iran, they hang drug traffickers left, right, and center- but in neighbouring Afghanistan, supposedly a pious Muslim country, they grow opium and provide about 90% of the world's supply of heroin- presumably under the approving eyes of Imams and other members of the Muslim faithful who pray to Allah five times a day.
 
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Tariki

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It does seem to me that while Islam generally exists within a state that has adopted it, identified with it, the Church/Christianity is seen/deemed to be separate. Therefore it seems to follow from this that while Christians can happily condemn Islam for the acts of Islamic Countries, they themselves can distance themselves from acts perpetrated by the countries they themselves live in, even though they have been created and moulded by Christian values. I realise just how complex this all is, what with Sharia Law..........it certainly takes more insight than I've got to work all the implications out.

As far as quotes from the Qu'ran, and explanations, really, just speaking for myself, I don't really want to see another thread - or even post - concerned with it. But its a free forum, so go ahead if anyone thinks its the way to go.....

Really, there are websites that list 100's of Biblical contradictions, 100's of acts of cruelty within its pages (often condoned by the God presented therein) I've glanced through and a two year old could see through most of them, yet who would really want to be presented with them all here and be faced with the job of trawling through them one by one, seeking to refute?

Can't people leave people of other faiths to interpret their own book, without seeking to TELL them how it MUST be interpreted? I have read quite a few posts by Christians who speak of having studied the Bible for thirty years or more, who are quite confident that it is "infallible". Maybe they should now spend an equal length of time on the Qu'ran before rushing into print, seeking to denigrate and reject............all with the best possible motives of course. (i.e. to promote their own chosen book)

But as I say, a free forum, post what you like. If you think it is God's work, please feel free.

P.S. I acknowledge that some here are seeking to ask how certain verses are to be understood, and therefore can claim that they are seeking to "understand", not to denigrate or refute (necessarily). So please claim such.
 
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razeontherock

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While that's not the purpose of this thread, I've participated in many like that, some of which are current. I started at least one like that. For a Christian, it's a really important thing to do, sooner or later. I really can't say if it's important for a Muslim to do the same within their belief system ...
 
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leftrightleftrightleft

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And this is why I am not a Muslim. I would prefer not to belong to a religious group that condones war as a justified means to an end. Who makes the decision to go to war? Islamic leaders? Directed by God? The same way Bush claimed God told him to invade Iraq? That's a slippery slope.

I would prefer to follow a religion that does not condone the killing of other human beings. If Islam is a religion of war as well as of peace, that gives way too much ammunition to anyone who has selfish/economic/political reasons for going to war. It enables an imam or Islamic cleric to say Allah condones such-and-such war because it is just.

PHenry42 said:
Did you know that Muhammed Ali refused to serve in Vietnam because the war could not be considered a just war by Islamic standards?
Click to expand...

Okay.



Hahaha, "didn't go conquering tribes because of differences, but as a counter to Pagan Arabs banding together". If those Pagan Arabs had been Muslim (aka not different from the Prophet) then he would likely not have conquered them. The way you have phrased this makes it seem that it was because of differences and the lack of acceptance that he went to conquer them. They didn't accept the Islamic community, and he didn't accept the Pagan community. This is a prime example of lack of tolerance.



I can agree with this.



I never said Muhammad contradicted the morality he himself preached, I said that his actions contradicted the standard of morality that moderate Muslims today would say is the morality of God. Such as raising an army to conquer neighboring countries: today many moderate Muslims wish for peaceful two-state solution in Israel/Palestine but it seems Muhammad's response would be more in-line with those who wish to make war with Israel and conquer it and squash out the Jews just like Banu Qurayza.

Secular biographies exist such as "Muhammad" by Maxime Rodinson, "Muhammad" by Karen Armstrong, The Life of the Prophet Muhammad - ReligionFacts

etc...

And when I said "objective" I guess I meant "secular" because no biography is truly objective. I meant more a biography from a historical perspective: one that neither bashes Mohammad in some anti-Islamic tirade (plenty of those exist too) nor one that makes Mohammad out to be a perfect Prophet (plenty of those exist too).
 
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razeontherock

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OP checking in here:

sorry I haven't had time to do my due diligence yet - but I will! We have 2 Muslim posters who are being gracious to us, and I will go through each of these, putting the sound byte into it's rightful larger context. Maybe everything will be resolved that simply? Or maybe some of this will prove difficult. Anyway, I hope to sincerely address the difficult passages within Islam, and welcome all to contribute in a rational and fair way:

following up on posts 13 and 14, reduces that list to the following:


Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive."

Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."
Qur'an 33:60 "Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy - a fierce slaughter - murdered, a horrible murdering."
Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed, 'Yes.' Maslama said, 'Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.' Muhammad said, 'You may do so.'"

Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country."

We have another list in this thread to go through too ...
 
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JJWhite

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razeontherock said:
Bukhari:V1B1N6 "Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country."
Click to expand...

That is hilarious, Ray.

That is a snippet from a LOOOONG hadith.

In that hadith, which is talking at about the time when Prophet Muhammad became a prophet, Heraclius, who practiced astrology, got up in a bad mood and told his guys that he had seen in the stars that a leader of those who practice circumcision had appeared. (I suppose he feared for his throne and his Empire)... and they mentioned that it was Jews who practiced circumcision, and then he or one of his guys that said, "Just have all the Jews killed".... and the story goes on. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never issued any orders to have all the Jews in the country killed.
 
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AskTheFamily

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This is from an old thread I posted:

By his Name, the light of all light, the Lord of the Universe.

I wanted to give what I understand of "Jihaad" in Quran and the issue of forcing people into one's religion.

The problem with scholars was that they deemed some parts of Quran forever abrogated instead of putting everything into context to see the teachings of God and his Messenger (blessings be upon him and his family).

We see in the start, the Messenger had a very gentle tone, would be told to say to the people "peace for soon you will know" and it was on the principle of God's word to Moses (peace be upon him) "speak to him a gentle word".

We see God taught this tone to be talked to a Pharaoh whom had oppressed so many innocents and caused mischief in the earth.

However, the polytheists of the region took the issue of his preaching the wrong way, and the leaders of misguidance called people to prosecute the Messenger and his followers.

We see it was only after this that permission was given to fight "permission is given to fight because they are oppressed..." and they were oppressed for no reason but believing in their Lord.

However, this was not to be an endless war, the objective was peace "so if they incline to peace, then incline to it" "fight them till there is no prosecution no more..."

We also see their was no want to force people into the religion "there is no force in the religion". This is because religion is what is done out of free will, hence it's impossible really to force one to religion, you can't force people to believe inwardly, outwardly actions and statements doesn't form a person religion and belief of the Sacred. We see clearly then it was taught that religion should not be forced on anyone.

However, after treaties, we see the polythiests breaking them and having no intention of keeping the peace. They're intention is to fight the Messenger and his followers no matter what. They will constantly try to get more forces and attack, having no intention of peace or keep any treaty.

In this regard keeping a treaty became useless with these people. Now if we think of the earlier principles, they are no longer applicable here, because there will be no peace by the other side really, they will only offer peace in deception with no intention of keeping it. So some new directions were needed to deal with this situation.

The commands were revealed that now they were to fight them until either they are killed or if they accept the religion, to let them be.

Now this was not out of saying the principle of inclining to peace is abrogated nor is out of the principle of not forcing religion abrogated, rather the situation was that they had no choice but to fight them yet at the same time, it was open up the way that they cannot stop their opposition by submitting to the message which they're minds were convinced of it's truth yet their hearts were averse to it.

If anyone reads that Surah, it can be seen this was order only to those whom broke the treaties, and it said specifically to stay at peace and true to those whom kept the treaty which were a minority.

However, with the disbelieving people of the book that fought, they were not to be fought till submission of religion but rather to jaziya. This was not an order to go fight all the people of the book in the world, it was referring to generality of the people of that region, the people of the book they knew.

It was when people united on fighting the believers, they were told after being told to forgive people, to have be gentle, have compassion, offer peace to the igorant, to be hard against them. This harshness ofcourse was not unbounded and they were taught to hope in one day that God would put love between them by making them stop their opposition to the light.

If we read one Surah, it explains that God ONLY forbid love for those whom fought them, and didn't forbid for others whom did not, and even called this doing good and being just. That is part of goodness and justice to love others just as you wish to be loved.

Verses are however taken out of context to promote hate and misunderstanding.

This is not a fair way to approach God's book which was revealed to deal with all sorts of circumstances.

The "[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]s" were those whom knew the truth and covered it and out of their hate to cover it, went all out war with God and his Messenger (saw).

This doesn't mean all "non-Muslims". It means those whom when the truth is presented to them, manifested to them, they go out all outward opposition to it, wanting to put the light of God, and it usually comes out with outwardly hostility.

As for "love", another misunderstanding is that this doesn't negation the compassion type love. We see God has compassion and love in this sense for all creation no matter what. This was it taught on the name "Ar-Rahman" and God says "my mercy embraces all things".

However, there is different type of love meaning, and people confuse the translations of words and not seeing thing in their places again.

The type of affection mercy type love, this is embrassive all creation, no matter how much God may hate what a creature has become, his compassion embraces it. This is of the universal love Christians talk about, but miss understand the way "Al-Waduod" is used in God's book, which mostly refers to higher meaning of love.

Love is itself ambigious and can be referring to different things in different context that have similarity.

Like "I love my house", has no "affection/compassion in it", "I love my mom" has no attraction in it and encompassess affection as well appreciation type love. "I love my wife" encompasses attraction, affection, appreciation...

When the books says he doesn't love "x", this doesn't negate the affection compassion type love, it negates another type love. For example, if people say "I love batman", it mostly has a adoration to it. If people love a person for his goodness, it has different type love. If people hate obnoxious people, it doesn't necessarily mean they don't have any compassion for them.

This is another thing that is misunderstood. So while it said not to love, it didn't negate yet wishing well for their enemies but rather we see they are taught to hope on day God will put love between them and they become bretherns of faith.

So I hope people learn to put things in their context. And the harshness in the other sense doesn't negate yet hoping they believe and turn to the right path.

We can see in this context as well, it makes sense that initially, people are not allowed to simply say we are Muslims, then leave their faith, because then they could all fake it, and then re-group to fight the believers.

However, this doesn't mean, for all times the principle "there is no force in religion" should go away, so it's obvious this apostacy command was temporary measure, but was not meant that in all times, a born Muslim is forced to remain Muslim because that is against the manifest and clear principle of God's book "there is no force in religion".

And there is many other things there is misconceptions of people these days include the verse of "beating" (it doesn't mean beating) despite their being an explicit verse not to hurt woman at all.

We can see God and his Messenger (saw) teach love towards people in general and not being hard against all non-Muslims.

And it teaches peace and inclining to peace, and it teaches not to force people to religion including Muslims, not forcing Muslims.

This is what is clear and explicit in God's book if people learn to put things in their place.

I hope I have cleared at least this misconception.
 
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razeontherock

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JJ: Yeah, I'm sure you could find many places in the Bible where 10 words in a row could be pretty incriminating ... anyway I'll be gone for a few days, and have been putting together a new band which will continue to be a major time crunch for a bit. I will get through this stuff though
 
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Rationalt

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JJWhite said:
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) never issued any orders to have all the Jews in the country killed.
Click to expand...

How about this
Sahih Muslim,
Book 041, Number 6985:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
 
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JJWhite

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Yeah... a big war between Jews and Muslims is prophesied.
 
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